Members Benjamin3156 Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 IOffer.com $200 I've looked on there for laughs because it wreaks of scam. Have you personally done it? I just thought it was a huge joke. Plus you have to send money to China... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rparchen Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I bought two guitars from China and each transaction went just fine. Shipping took less than a week and each guitar was packed in a solid stryofoam "case". I went through Musoland, which appears to be shut down, and I haven't dealt with anyone through ioffer. I paid via paypal and figured I could either do a charge back or contest the charges on my credit card if I was scammed. No issues though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cummings15 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 i used this guy. http://www.ioffer.com/selling/xplosionplaya5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members InnerVision Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 Everyone is gonna get their panties in a twist and get all butt hurt about some random guy selling fake guitars online..Bla bla.. Who {censored}ing cares. Someone took the time and actually contacted Gibson already? Wow. Either way..$500 is way too much for these guitars. They cost $100 to buy direct from the factories and normal resale is $200. Good luck making your $400 profit.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 $500? WOW! what a dealhttp://www.ioffer.com/i/Gibson-Zakk-Wylde-Bullseye-Les-Paul-Custom-82890916And to think these guys sell em for $200 or less (if you offer it) all day long. Get out dirtbag. So, he's a dirtbag for selling em for more than someone else? Most of Ebay must be dirtbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 Illegal, trademark infringeing, counterfeit guitars.Ban Him! I was unaware it was illegal to SELL, second hand, a copy when you state it's a copy, and since no one can prove these aren't second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 I'm only upset because he tried this crap over @ UG, and is obviously trying to pull a personal profit margin. I've owned Agiles, and I've owned Jap Lawsuits. I'm not against copies, I'm against people trying to rip others off. How is he ripping anyone off? He said it's a copy. How many members here bought those Gibson Faded Explorers like wildfire, or First Act Sheenas, or Squier 51s, only to turn around the second they arrived and huck them out for twice what they paid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thesockmonster Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 Let me bold out the flaw in your comment for you...UG is a joke. I got banned from there for harassing a guy that ripped me off, Nuff Said. I remember when Emad banned you. He's a whackjob, anyway. You did nothing wrong. It's their fault you can't edit anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cavpilot Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members creep66 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 I have bought from ioffer, just never a guitar and the few times I did the items were from Vietnam and the deals went down just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrjones Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 I was unaware it was illegal to SELL, second hand, a copy when you state it's a copy, and since no one can prove these aren't second hand... If Gibson didn't make it, it's illegal to own or sell. Regardless of any 'disclosure'. Even if you only have one, and are selling it cheaper than you bought it, it's still technically illegal. This guy is trying to make a profit, based on the Gibson name. That's CLEARLY fraudulent, whether the guitars are 'used' or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shooter1371 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 If Gibson didn't make it, it's illegal to own or sell. Regardless of any 'disclosure'. Even if you only have one, and are selling it cheaper than you bought it, it's still technically illegal.This guy is trying to make a profit, based on the Gibson name. That's CLEARLY fraudulent, whether the guitars are 'used' or not. It is my understanding that its not criminally illegal to own or possess a copy. It turns criminal if you turn around and knowingly try to fraudulantly pass it off by selling it as an authentic gibson. Copyright and trademark infringements are civil in nature and subject to civil tort law (simple possession only). The only criminal violation I can see is the actual reproduction of the gibson trademark by the Chinese manufacturer, in which the U.S. has no juristiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imograss Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 So does anyone here actually have any of these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrjones Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 It is my understanding that its not criminally illegal to own or possess a copy. It turns criminal if you turn around and knowingly try to fraudulantly pass it off by selling it as an authentic gibson. Copyright and trademark infringements are civil in nature and subject to civil tort law (simple possession only). The only criminal violation I can see is the actual reproduction of the gibson trademark by the Chinese manufacturer, in which the U.S. has no juristiction. Your understanding is incorrect. Why isn't it possible to sell one of these guitars on ebay (with all the disclaimers)? - Because they're trademark infringements and illegal. For that matter, why can't Tokai, Burny, Greco, Edwards import their "Les Paul" guitars into the U.S. and sell their new guitars through dealers? Because at a minimum, the headstock shape is a trademark infringement. Why did Fender send a "Cease and Desist" letter to Bill Nash asking him to quit putting 'Fender' decals on the headstocks of the guitars he assembled (with Fender-licensed necks)? Because it's trademark infringement. Of course, selling a Chinese guitar as a real 'Gibson' adds Fraud to the equation, but disclosure does nothing to alleviate the fact that you're selling a guitar with an illegal logo. I can't believe that musicians of all people don't get this... this is intellectual property. If by some miracle, our new CD really creates a stir, I'd be completely pissed-off to see anyone selling bootlegged copies of it. Gibson worked hard to establish a very recognizeable brand, and paid not just to trademark certain parts of their design, but also paid to defend that trademark. It's the same thing. As much as I might not like the current Gibson company/management/philosophy, and whether I'll buy a new Gibson ever again, letting anyone get away with using their name to make money is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members panoramic Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 KILL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keelbolts Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 It's too bad these manufacturers put somebody else's name on the headstock. They would play the same if they said Peking Duck and not Gibson. I suspect one of the reasons that Gibson is so aggressive in attempting to prevent the sale of copies is that there is precious little difference between assembly line produced guitars. I believe most of the Epis are manufactured in China now, so what's the difference? My brother spent years in China reporting on economic issues. He told me many a time of going into a factory to see guitars, or jeans, or bicycles coming off the same line and being tagged with a variety of brand names. Also, never imagine that "all Chinese stuff is junk because that's what they produce." They produce what is in demand. They are capable of producing quality comparable to anybody else's. Never forget that there was a reasonable level of civilization in China when the Europeans were practically living in caves. Lastly, I can't be the only one here that's thinking, if they can produce these copies for $100 how can Gibson sucker folks into paying thousands of dollars for one of their copies? Yes, Gibsons are better, but 10 times better? 30 times as good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shooter1371 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 Your understanding is incorrect.Why isn't it possible to sell one of these guitars on ebay (with all the disclaimers)? - Because they're trademark infringements and illegal. For that matter, why can't Tokai, Burny, Greco, Edwards import their "Les Paul" guitars into the U.S. and sell their new guitars through dealers? Because at a minimum, the headstock shape is a trademark infringement.Why did Fender send a "Cease and Desist" letter to Bill Nash asking him to quit putting 'Fender' decals on the headstocks of the guitars he assembled (with Fender-licensed necks)? Because it's trademark infringement.Of course, selling a Chinese guitar as a real 'Gibson' adds Fraud to the equation, but disclosure does nothing to alleviate the fact that you're selling a guitar with an illegal logo.I can't believe that musicians of all people don't get this... this is intellectual property. If by some miracle, our new CD really creates a stir, I'd be completely pissed-off to see anyone selling bootlegged copies of it. Gibson worked hard to establish a very recognizeable brand, and paid not just to trademark certain parts of their design, but also paid to defend that trademark. It's the same thing. As much as I might not like the current Gibson company/management/philosophy, and whether I'll buy a new Gibson ever again, letting anyone get away with using their name to make money is wrong. I am correct in the fact that by mere possession, you are not acting criminally. If you reproduce, or manufacture a trademarked item, then you are breaking the law. The reason why ebay and the other examples you mention, doesn't allow selling is because of the civil liability it can produce. There is a difference between civil tort and criminal prosecution, that was the difference I was making. If you sell a les paul copy even while disclosing that it is a copy, you can't be criminally prosecuted, however you can be held accountable by civil precedent. If you try to sell it as an authentic Gibson, you are not guitly of trademark infringement, but your are committing fraud which is a criminal offense. Understand? What you need to understand that when you use the term illegal, you have to differentiate between criminal and civil. Basically if you try to sell it, even after disclosure you may be subjecting yourself to fines, desist orders etc... but you are not going to be arrested, or serve jail time. I do see what you are saying and I appreciate the fact that you are trying to help people on this forum from being ripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrjones Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 I am correct in the fact that by mere possession, you are not acting criminally. If you reproduce, or manufacture a trademarked item, then you are breaking the law. The reason why ebay and the other examples you mention, doesn't allow selling is because of the civil liability it can produce. There is a difference between civil tort and criminal prosecution, that was the difference I was making. If you sell a les paul copy even while disclosing that it is a copy, you can't be criminally prosecuted, however you can be held accountable by civil precedent. If you try to sell it as an authentic Gibson, you are not guitly of trademark infringement, but your are committing fraud which is a criminal offense. Understand? Are you sure? Counterfeit Gibson Guitars Strike a Sour Chord with Harnett Judge PDF Print E-mailSunday, 08 July 2007RALEIGH: June 28, 2007 - Steven F. Sexton, 48, of Lillington pleaded guilty Monday in Harnett County Superior Court to two counts of criminal use of a counterfeit trademark for selling fake Gibson guitars. Superior Court Judge Frank Lanier gave Sexton a 45 day suspended sentence, 18 months of unsupervised probation, and ordered him to pay a fine of $250. The judge also ordered Sexton to pay $2700 in restitution to his victims. Sexton was charged in March following an investigation by the North Carolina Secretary of State Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Benjamin3156 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 This^ does not parallel this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 If Gibson didn't make it, it's illegal to own or sell. Regardless of any 'disclosure'. Even if you only have one, and are selling it cheaper than you bought it, it's still technically illegal.This guy is trying to make a profit, based on the Gibson name. That's CLEARLY fraudulent, whether the guitars are 'used' or not. That's not true in the slightest. I've got a Nelsonic that the previous owner put a water decal on. Now it says "Fender." Not illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Benjamin3156 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 I own/have owned/have played my share of Gibson guitars as well as copies. I would problably buy a copy for cheap just to have it. And when I got tired of it, I would sell that copy to another person who wanted a copy to beat on for an appropriate (most likely less than I paid) price. I can assure you that my purchasing a copy would/will not affect the amount of money Gibson makes off of me. The only customers Gibson should be concerned about are the loyal ones and no loyal customer is going to give up his real Gibson for an inferior replica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrjones Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 This^ does not parallel this situation. The seller in NC was convicted of "Criminal Use of a Counterfeit Trademark"... that's EXACTLY what's going on here, too - counterfeit use of a trademark isn't related to disclosure. If it's not a gibson, it can't have the logo, whether it's 'disclosed' or not. And, I was countering the previous post that indicated "If you try to sell it as an authentic Gibson, you are not guilty of trademark infringement, but you are committing fraud, which is a criminal offense"... which is incorrect. And another case, so it's not just North Carolina... "Fake Guitars Seized From Oakdale Music Shop (Counterfeit Gibsons) Newsday ^ | 18 Sep 07 | Joseph Mallia Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:14:02 PM by Drew68 An Oakdale music store owner was arrested Monday for selling fake versions of the legendary Gibson guitar at his Montauk Highway shop, the Suffolk police said. Investigators seized 15 fake Gibsons from the store, the police said. Bernard Musumeci, 44, of 2 Domino Way, Centereach, surrendered to the police Monday night, and was charged with trademark counterfeiting. After he was released, Musumeci turned over another 18 guitars from his home, and Gibson Guitar Corp. experts will determine whether they're authentic. The arrest came after a two-month investigation by Fifth Squad detectives, working in conjunction with the Nashville-based Gibson company. After authorities were alerted that Musumeci may have been selling fakes at Oakdale Music, at 925 Montauk Hwy., an undercover security expert from Gibson determined that several guitars from the store were, indeed, counterfeit. Suffolk detectives applied for and executed a search warrant earlier this week and the 15 guitars, all of which were determined to be counterfeit, were seized at the music store." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Benjamin3156 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 On a seperate note, why doesn't Gibson have an affordable line making this a complete non-issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lonnie99 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 Because they make jillions selling the lines they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Benjamin3156 Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 Because they make jillions selling the lines they have. I understand that. I guess my real question should be as follows: When you buy a MIM strat is looks like an American When you buy a Squier it looks like an American When you buy a Korean PRS it looks like one made in the US When you buy a Korean Hamer it looks like one made in the US When you buy a Slammer is looks like a USA Hamer When you buy an LTD is looks like an ESP When you buy an epiphone... ...IT HAS THAT STUPID {censored}ING HEADSTOCK!!!! WHY!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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