Pc Vs Mac laptop for live situation

[steadyb]

Not really seeing your point, Mike.

 

I don't think anyone has the time to list the 50 or 60 pages of Windows related problems, not to mention the thousands if viruses and spyware that is all part of the "fun" on a PC.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 Are you pulling my leg? Read the thread title Audacity. Has the fanboy bug gotten to you to? Super defensive.

Not defensive, just questioning why you feel it's your duty to jump into EVERY thread regarding Macs. I use a PC for Gigastudio (and only Gigastudio). When it works, it's cool.

 

For the record, both of my current Macs are currently giving me a bunch of grief

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by steadyb Not really seeing your point, Mike. I don't think anyone has the time to list the 50 or 60 pages of Windows related problems, not to mention the thousands if viruses and spyware that is all part of the "fun" on a PC.

 

 

Couple quick points:

 

1. I was refuting misinformation by posting the lists.

 

2. Anyone who can't figure out how to prevent spyware shouldn't own a computer, or own any technology.

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by The Audacity Works Not defensive, just questioning why you feel it's your duty to downplay Mac computers. I use a PC for Gigastudio (and only Gigastudio). When it works, it's cool.

 

 

 

Well the thread was PC versus Mac and I gave my two cents. And of course the myth htat Macs are somehow more reliable and "error free" was spread, and so I needed to bat it down (like any responsible forum member would do when misinformation is presented).

 

 

Like I said, I like Apple. I just don't care for misinformation.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 Well the thread was PC versus Mac and I gave my two cents. And of course the myth htat Macs are somehow more reliable and "error free" was spread, and so I needed to bat it down (like any responsible forum member would do when misinformation is presented).

Fair enough. I will certainly maintain that a properly maintained PC can be as stable as an off-the-shelf Mac, but if you were to speak with anyone who works for a cross-platform music software/hardware manufacturer (as I do), you'll find that the vast majority of issues come from the PC side of things. Sure, a lot of that has to do with end users, so yes, Macs are much more forgiving to newbies and morons. But do it: Ask the people who actually work at these companies. Ask Digidesign. Ask Emagic (before they were bought out by Apple). Ask Steinberg. Ask M-Audio. Ask Edirol. Ask PreSonus. Ask Native Instruments. Ask MOTU. They'll all most likely tell you that *ON AVERAGE*, Macs give the end user fewer problems. Several consumer report studies have come to the same conclusion.

 

So it's not misinformation. It's a generalization based on millions of man-hours of support, market research, and industry experience. The generalization exists for a reason.

 

Unfortunately, it's not based on measurable data, like "Macs are less expensive than PCs" or "Macs have more available software than PCs". Which, indeed, if anyone here were claiming such, would most certainly be misinformation.

 

But yes, a properly configured PC laptop running Ableton Live would be excellent right now. As would a MacBook Pro, because Live works with the Intel Macs right now.

[Mike51]

I have worked with both Apple and PC's. Yes, PC laptops can be trickier than older Mac laptops because they are a hell of alot faster. Anyone can build a slow ass laptop that runs without problem. The trick is building the most powerful laptop on the market and making it completely reliable. The heating/cooling issues play a large part in reliability and stability. If you want super fast without pops or cpu drag you take your chances on cutting edge technology.

 

As for the companies you mention, I have several of their products (M-Audio, Mackie,Native Instruments, etc) and have had ZERO problems on a PC. I'm running Reaktor 5 at a considerably faster rate than a dual G5 with a two year old CPU.....

 

Reaktor Sesisons and R5 have never even crashed on me, not once.

 

At this point your observations about those companies are merely heresay. If you look in the NI forums, most problems are with Macs, *especially* stability and CPU useage issues.

 

And when Mac grows and more software becomes available, Mac too will be the target of more malware.

 

Personally I find almost all laptops to be crap, Mac or PC. They are made of crappy components, are slower compared to desktops, have tiny screens, and are loaded with {censored}ty proprietary crap hardware/systems.

 

Anything that can't push the latest graphics apps IMHO is relatively outdated junk.

[Lancaster]

Originally posted by Mike51 Couple quick points: 1. I was refuting misinformation by posting the lists. 2. Anyone who can't figure out how to prevent spyware shouldn't own a computer, or own any technology.

 

Anyone that uses a Mac doesnt NEED to worry about spyware/malware/virii.

 

And THAT is a fact.

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by Mike51 As for the companies you mention, I have several of their products (M-Audio, Mackie,Native Instruments, etc) and have had ZERO problems on a PC. I'm running Reaktor 5 at a considerably faster rate than a dual G5 with a two year old CPU..... Reaktor Sesisons and R5 have never even crashed on me, not once. At this point your observations about those companies are merely heresay. If you look in the NI forums, most problems are with Macs, *especially* stability and CPU useage issues.

See, that's the thing. Your personal experience and what you happen to read on an internet forum have absolutely nothing to do with what is and isn't misinformation. You have to go to the source. The people who know. The people who create and support the cross-platform software and hardware. They're the ones who can honestly give the best idea of which platform is more stable, is the easiest to troubleshoot, and causes the fewest hassles *ON AVERAGE*, for the majority of users. Not you.

[Mike51]

Originally posted by multitrack mind Anyone that uses a Mac doesnt NEED to worry about spyware/malware/virii. And THAT is a fact.

 

 

When Apple gets a userbase, they will becomea target....

 

 

http://news.com.com/Mac+malware+door+creaks+open/2100-7349_3-5700982.html

 

"The average user, who can't find their Library folder with two mice and a spotlight, is stuck. It would take all of 30 seconds for me to pick out a nice porn image, make it the icon of a widget, drop it in your dashboard and you're stuck with it. It doesn't even need any Javascript," Stephan added. Stephan has also created the zaptastic_evil widget, which redirects the user's browser to a Web site every time the widget Dashboard is launched--and drops the user out of Dashboard, preventing the widget from being closed.

 

http://www.securemac.com/

 

 

11.30.2005 News Apple has released Security Update 2005-009 that covers issues dealing with CoreFoundation where a maliciously-craftered URL may result in execution of arbitrary code. Also included in update: curl, iodbcadmintool, apache 2, apache_mod_ssl, openssl, passwordserver, safari, sudo, and syslog.

 

 

http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,63000,00.html?tw=rss.TEK

 

 

No, that is not the point of owning a Mac. I've already alluded to why Mac OS X is essentially virus-free: because almost nobody uses it. I hear the gnashing of teeth from Mac users and book publishers already. But let's face it: In the grand scheme of things, Mac OS X users are a statistical rounding error. If you're in the business of creating malware of profit, which platform would you choose?

 

 

 

 

[Lancaster]

Originally posted by Mike51 http://news.com.com/Mac+malware+door+creaks+open/2100-7349_3-5700982.html

 

I've never had any kind of virus /spyware/etc. in 12 years of Mac use on the net.

 

Ditto every Mac owner I know, mostly using Macs for the same amount of time.

 

Ditto everyone on the HC Mac forum. If there was a virus/{censored}ware around for

Macs, I think I would have heard about it in the last 4 years.

 

Using the same logic as in that article, M$ might build a really good OS with all new code someday...Oh, of course, we've all heard about Vista by now. Gee, maybe in another 10 years or so...

 

[Mike51]

[

 

See, that's the thing. Your personal experience and what you happen to read on an internet forum have absolutely nothing to do with what is and isn't misinformation. You have to go to the source. The people who know. The people who create and support the cross-platform software and hardware. They're the ones who can honestly give the best idea of which platform is more stable, is the easiest to troubleshoot, and causes the fewest hassles *ON AVERAGE*, for the majority of users. Not you.

 

 

 

I have worked on both Apples and PC's for 15 years. I used to build scrap computers just for kicks when I was 14. I know how they work. And I also know people who work on them. Apple has a marketing campaign that is the envy of the world( save for the Bushadministration).

 

When you look at NI's forums, you will consistently see most problems are Mac related (speed, reliability issues). There is a huge difference in how easy it is to develop software for a system, and how that softwware performs , day in and day out on the same system. The end user result is what counts, not the complaints of the develpors in the creation of the software for the given platform.

 

 

For the past few years, if you wanted a nice, slow, reliable proprietary "do it for you" computer, you got an Apple. If you like flexibility, tweaking, raw power and yes,stabiity, you build yourself a highly refined PC.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 For the past few years, if you wanted a nice, slow, reliable proprietary "do it for you" computer, you got an Apple. If you like flexibility, tweaking, raw power and yes,stabiity, you build yourself a highly refined PC.

Mike. MIKE. Your experience and what you happen to read on... what is it... Native Instruments' forum is NOT representative of what's actually going on out there. You cannot make sweeping statements without being in a position where you can see the whole picture.

 

"Hey, I've been taking prilomex for years, and I've never had any side effects. The drug is safe for everyone!"

 

"Hey, every single one of my friends voted against Bush. There's no way he could've won!"

 

"If I've never heard of Pokemon; it can't be that popular." (My mom actually said this)

 

Whenever someone calls my company with a Mac-related issue, no matter how inexperienced they seem, we always breathe a sigh of relief, because chances are *ON AVERAGE* the issue will be resolved in a much shorter time than if a customer with a PC (even a PC expert) calls. That's just the way it is. That's the way it is at nearly all of the cross-platform music hardware and software companies, as I actually know people who work there. Because it's my job to know people who work there. And they'll all say that Macs are much easier to troubleshoot, cause fewer problems on average, and have fewer reliablity issues.

 

But they're more expensive, have fewer pieces of software available, and up until recently, their laptops were slower.

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by The Audacity Works Mike. MIKE. Your experience and what you happen to read on... what is it... Native Instruments' forum is NOT representative of what's actually going on out there. You cannot make sweeping statements without being in a position where you can see the whole picture.

 

 

Are you kidding me? You are doing the same thing. I have years of experience in the computer field, and network with many more who have more experience than I do. I don't work with silly music apps. I work with deep sea exploration systems (ever see a computer sting ray?). I also work on custom spec mb's for specialty devices able to dive deep into the ocean without imploding. I'm not working in some office with the same set box as everyone else and the same parameters, lol. I "progressed" from that area, which is light years behind what I am working with now. So spare me the condescending talk about "experts' who work within a set realm of hardware and software, lol.

 

 

Whenever someone calls my company with a Mac-related issue, no matter how inexperienced they seem, we always breathe a sigh of relief, because chances are *ON AVERAGE* the issue will be resolved in a much shorter time than if a customer with a PC (even a PC expert) calls. That's just the way it is. That's the way it is at nearly all of the cross-platform music hardware and software companies, as I actually know people who work there. Because it's my job to know people who work there. And they'll all say that Macs are much easier to troubleshoot, cause fewer problems on average, and have fewer reliablity issues.

 

 

 

Of course it is. Almost no one uses them, they aren't configurable, they run on "automatic" and are proprietary. I have been in the computer industry for years. For what they do, the Macs are not more reliable than a decent PC. They *did* have an advantage thx to the terrible win 98 and winme, but that's not the case anymore.

[Birdienumnum]

poopsiedoodles.

[Lancaster]

Originally posted by Mike51 I don't work with silly music apps. I work with deep sea exploration systems (ever see a computer sting ray?). I also work on custom spec mb's for specialty devices able to dive deep into the ocean without imploding.

 

Silly music apps?

 

Why should anyone on THIS forum care about "silly music apps"?

 

WTF do we need to know anything about THEM for???????

 

 

I think you just "imploded"

[keanu reeves]

my dad can beat up your dad.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 I "progressed" from that area, which is light years behind what I am working with now. So spare me the condescending talk about "experts' who work within a set realm of hardware and software, lol.

Jesus, that's condescending. You can zip up your pants now, thank you.

 

You win. I will freely admit that PCs are just as stable and reliable as Macs for those who happen to be experts on deep sea exploration systems.

 

Good thing everyone who makes music on a computer is an expert on deep sea exploration systems. Coincidentally enough, everyone's favorite band is The Flaming Lips too.

 

Excuse me while I go call Ableton, Edirol, M-Audio, Digidesign, Spectrasonics, McDSP, MOTU, and Steinberg and tell them they've been smoking crack all these years.

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by The Audacity Works Jesus, that's condescending. You can zip up your pants now, thank you.

 

 

 

Hey, you played that card *well* before I did.

 

 

 

Good thing everyone who makes music on a computer is an expert on deep sea exploration systems. Coincidentally enough, everyone's favorite band is The Flaming Lips too.

 

 

Usually when someone loses an argument, they tend to go off on these wild tangents. Your Lips comment eloquently proves you have nothing of subtstance left to offer in this discussion. Personal jabs aren't going to help clarify any points. The Lips are a great band.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 Your Lips comment eloquently proves you have nothing of subtstance left to offer in this discussion. Personal jabs aren't going to help clarify any points. The Lips are a great band.

I like The Flaming Lips. The point was that because your personal experience reflects it, you insist PCs must empirically be just as trouble-free for people *ON AVERAGE* as Macs when it comes to music production. The fact is, that's not so. Just like because The Flaming Lips are your favorite band, it doesn't mean it's everyone's favorite band. It borders on narcissism.

 

As for "losing an argument", hey, it's your word against Ableton, Propellerheads, Steinberg, Edirol, Spectrasonics, MOTU, McDSP, and many others. Who should the average newbie trust? The *collective* knowledge and experience of music software and hardware manufacturers/developers who deal with both platforms constantly all day...

 

...or one deep sea network administrator?

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by The Audacity Works I like The Flaming Lips. The point was that because your personal experience reflects it, you insist PCs must empirically be just as trouble-free for people *ON AVERAGE* as Macs when it comes to music production. The fact is, that's not so. Just like because The Flaming Lips are your favorite band, it doesn't mean it's everyone's favorite band. It borders on narcissism.

 

 

You are confusing two things. The stubborn Lips talk may be approaching that, but not clearing up misinformation.

 

Again, you have provided ZERO facts to support that Macs are superior for music production. The only evidence ever even presented in this thread to refute a claim was the list I posted.

 

 

 

 

As for "losing an argument", hey, it's your word against Ableton, Propellerheads, Steinberg, Edirol, Spectrasonics, MOTU, McDSP, and many others. Who should the average newbie trust? The *collective* knowledge and experience of music software and hardware manufacturers/developers who deal with both platforms constantly all day...

 

 

I'm not just speaking from my experience, but from the experience of many others.

 

Think about it logically. First, there are far more PC users than Mac users. And the mac users are working on slower, proprietary machines. Alot of the PC guys have Zalman copper coolers, overclocked PC's, GPU's that require high powered PSU's, dozens of tweak apps, and numerous other kinds of customizations. And of those people that don't know what they are doing, of *course*it's going to be harder to fix their problem. But it doesn't mean anything. So because their PC is more of a modular/tweak system than the mac, that means it's worse for music production? That's B.S. You sound like Ian Faith (Spinal Tap's manager). that's like saying that Reaktor 5 or a Nord Modular aren't as good for music production because they are "too complex".

[jazzed]

*note: judging by your posts in the past, I'm going to assume your "PC" means "Windows PC"

 

Originally posted by Mike51 I have worked with both Apple and PC's. Yes, PC laptops can be trickier than older Mac laptops because they are a hell of alot faster. Anyone can build a slow ass laptop that runs without problem. The trick is building the most powerful laptop on the market and making it completely reliable. The heating/cooling issues play a large part in reliability and stability. If you want super fast without pops or cpu drag you take your chances on cutting edge technology.

Hardware reliability and operating system reliability tend to be fairly seperate factors nowadays. Operating system reliability generally does not decrease when hardware performance increases.

 

And when Mac grows and more software becomes available, Mac too will be the target of more malware.

You'd think that in five years of OS X, SOMEONE would have created a virus, maybe just to have the glory of 'I created the first and only Mac OS X virus'. But there hasn't been a single one thus far. Not to say that there can't be, or won't be, but Mac OS X is inherently more secure and less susceptible to malware by design than Windows.

 

There are a number of major design flaws that Windows suffers that has allowed these problems to elevate to this level. A Mac OS X virus would be much more reliant on social engineering to do its damage. It would be much more difficult to get things to automatically run, and automatically spread themselves to other comptuers. As for spyware, insecure browsers like IE that are so intertwined with the rest of the system haven't existed. An IE security exploit is a big deal, because it can affect the entire computer. A Safari or Firefox exploit is usually much less of an issue, since it usually can't.

 

If there was a direct correlation between popularity and number of security holes, shouldn't Apache be less secure than IIS? If the tables of market share were to turn, we'd see problems, but I highly doubt we'd see nearly the epidemic of malware that Windows users suffer from today.

 

Personally I find almost all laptops to be crap, Mac or PC. They are made of crappy components, are slower compared to desktops, have tiny screens, and are loaded with {censored}ty proprietary crap hardware/systems.

True enough, but they're getting a lot better. One area I'd really like to see make a leap in terms of laptop hardware is the hard drives, in capacity, reliability, and speed. External drives aren't the solution for everything.

 

Anything that can't push the latest graphics apps IMHO is relatively outdated junk.

Not everyone needs to run the latest graphics apps.

 

Almost no one uses them, they aren't configurable, they run on "automatic" and are proprietary.

How are they not configurable? At face value, they may not be, but you can really dive into the system if you know what you're doing (in other words, if you can work with a UNIX system). The Windows cmd is basically useless. What can you tweak in Windows that Mac OS X prohibits? I actually feel lost when using Windows computers because I can't use a bash shell, but that's just me being a *NIX geek . In reality, neither Windows or Mac OS X let you do that much to the system, which brings me to my next point:

 

If you like flexibility, tweaking, raw power and yes,stabiity, you build yourself a highly refined PC.

...running Linux. In terms of flexability/tweakability, Mac OS AND Windows don't even come close. You can compile and optimize the kernel specifically to streamline it to the point where it might as well have been designed for your computer and just that computer. Windows and Mac OS X (and commercial or "easy-to-use" Linux distros) are ridiculously bloated by comparison to my current system. Granted I'd probably have to recompile the kernel if I changed a component, but you're talking highly refined here . You can basically build the operating system from scratch choosing each major and minor component of the system yourself. Totally customized system.

 

Which is why I don't buy your flexability/tweakability arguments. Any Mac OS or Windows user has little right to claim that their OS is ultra-refined and tweaked and all, because it really isn't.

 

dozens of tweak apps, and numerous other kinds of customizations.

Again. Anyone using a 'tweak app' isn't really tweaking their system, they're using a friendly application to do it automatically for them.

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by Mike51 Again, you have provided ZERO facts to support that Macs are superior for music production. The only evidence ever even presented in this thread to refute a claim was the list I posted.

First of all, I've never said Macs were better than PCs for music production; indeed, that'd be irresponsible, as "better" is purely subjective. "Better" could mean a lot of things

[Mike51]

 

Hardware reliability and operating system reliability tend to be fairly seperate factors nowadays. Operating system reliability generally does not decrease when hardware performance increases.

 

 

 

Depends on how buggy the software is. Memory leaks and system resource quarks can cause huge decreases in system performance which would have a huge effect on reliability of hardware. An overly hot cpu and GPU is not a happy system and will hang.

 

 

You'd think that in five years of OS X, SOMEONE would have created a virus, maybe just to have the glory of 'I created the first and only Mac OS X virus'. But there hasn't been a single one thus far. Not to say that there can't be, or won't be, but Mac OS X is inherently more secure and less susceptible to malware by design than Windows.

 

 

 

Because no one uses Macs. That's the asnwer to that, plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

There are a number of major design flaws that Windows suffers that has allowed these problems to elevate to this level. A Mac OS X virus would be much more reliant on social engineering to do its damage. It would be much more difficult to get things to automatically run, and automatically spread themselves to other comptuers.

 

 

As many articles verify, OSx is a prime candidate for malware. It doesn't exist because creating malware for Macs is a pointless to those bastards.

 

 

 

As for spyware, insecure browsers like IE that are so intertwined with the rest of the system haven't existed. An IE security exploit is a big deal, because it can affect the entire computer. A Safari or Firefox exploit is usually much less of an issue, since it usually can't.

 

 

 

Yeah I agree with this. I still use IE6 because it's an interface I have grown used to. But if you know what you are doing, there is no need to worry about malware (hijack this, blacklight, ewido, AV-CLS, CWS shredder)

 

 

 

but I highly doubt we'd see nearly the epidemic of malware that Windows users suffer from today.

 

 

It would probably be just as bad.

 

 

 

 

True enough, but they're getting a lot better. One area I'd really like to see make a leap in terms of laptop hardware is the hard drives, in capacity, reliability, and speed. External drives aren't the solution for everything.

 

 

I have several, but they are used for personal business only and a few apps. I have big hands and can't stand those keyboards.

 

 

 

 

Not everyone needs to run the latest graphics apps.

 

 

This is true. It's just nice having a system that can run *anything* you can throw at it.

 

 

 

 

How are they not configurable? At face value, they may not be, but you can really dive into the system if you know what you're doing (in other words, if you can work with a UNIX system). The Windows cmd is basically useless. What can you tweak in Windows that Mac OS X prohibits? I actually feel lost when using Windows computers because I can't use a bash shell, but that's just me being a *NIX geek . In reality, neither Windows or Mac OS X let you do that much to the system, which brings me to my next point:

 

 

Ahh you can do a ton of stuff. The O.S. flexibility and especially the hardware flexibility on the PC end is great.

 

 

...running Linux. In terms of flexability/tweakability, Mac OS AND Windows don't even come close. You can compile and optimize the kernel specifically to streamline it to the point where it might as well have been designed for your computer and just that computer. Windows and Mac OS X (and commercial or "easy-to-use" Linux distros) are ridiculously bloated by comparison to my current system. Granted I'd probably have to recompile the kernel if I changed a component, but you're talking highly refined here . You can basically build the operating system from scratch choosing each major and minor component of the system yourself. Totally customized system.

 

 

Yep. I have two Linux boxes that I upkeep over the years. The "bloat factor" of "do it all" O.S.'s is truly amazing. That is precisely what I have been doing on the custom motherboard work, but using specific kernel drivers for flash bios.

 

 

 

Which is why I don't buy your flexability/tweakability arguments. Any Mac OS or Windows user has little right to claim that their OS is ultra-refined and tweaked and all, because it really isn't. Again. Anyone using a 'tweak app' isn't really tweaking their system, they're using a friendly application to do it automatically for them.

 

 

 

 

The PC is definitley more tweakable in terms of O.S. and hardware than a Mac. There is no doublt in the world about that. So that adressed your first point.

 

A tweak app does tweak. "Tweaking" is having an option. A kernel specific customized Linux system may be a big tweak, but it doesn't make a PC less tweakable than a Mac.

[Birdienumnum]

[sizzlemeister]

Originally posted by Birdienumnum

 

 

AHHHahahaha! Funny.

 

 

 

Two words everyone in this discussion should keep in mind because they are the FOUNDATION upon which all arguments rest:

 

market penetration