Members SonicTonic Posted November 27, 2002 Members Posted November 27, 2002 Hey, I'm curious to see some examples of jazzing up 12 bar blues progressions. I believe this is a great way to understand substitution and the like. I have some ideas but have not completely digested them. I realize there is a similar thread going on, but lets see what we can do. I'll start with the basic: | A7 | | | | | D7 | | A7 | | | E7 | D7 | A7 | E7 | I'm just using that as the blueprint, just want to see what people come up with. I know my chords so throw in all #5's,b9's you want:) Thanks
Members edgarb Posted November 27, 2002 Members Posted November 27, 2002 Well, I don't know if this is what you are talking about, but say I'm playing 12 bar in E....One thing I like to do is hammer off the G (Minor 3rd--High E string 3rd Fret) with my pinky while I'm playing the chords. I find this especially useful for solo acoustic playing, but it works well in all situations. This can be used for all blues progressions, but of course, the g is not the minor third of all blues scales! I hope this is what you are looking for, if not, i'm sorry for posting it
Members Jim Soloway Posted December 10, 2002 Members Posted December 10, 2002 Originally posted by SonicTonic Hey,I'm curious to see some examples of jazzing up 12 bar blues progressions. I believe this is a great way to understand substitution and the like. I have some ideas but have not completely digested them. I realize there is a similar thread going on, but lets see what we can do.I'll start with the basic:| A7 | | | || D7 | | A7 | || E7 | D7 | A7 | E7 |I'm just using that as the blueprint, just want to see what people come up with. I know my chords so throw in all #5's,b9's you want:)Thanks Start by breaking it up so that it's one chord or voicing per bar. Try this as a fairly simple example. I've included the fret position of the root in brackets. A7 (5)D9 (5)A13 (5)A9 (12)D9 (5)D#dim7 (6)A7#9 (12)F#7#9 (9)B7#9 (7)E9 (7)A7#9 (5)E9 (7)
Members Jimmy James Posted December 10, 2002 Members Posted December 10, 2002 A13/D9/A13/Em9 Aug/D9/D#dim7/A13 Bm7/C#m7 F#7#9/Bm7/E7#9/A7/F#7#9/Bm7 E7#9 Repeat... Or something like that. I don't have my guitar in front of me. These are my favorite kinds of blues progressions. The Jazzy Blues. Blues with a brain. The fun part is coming up with the walk downs after the IV chord. There's a bunch of them that I mentally collect because when you jam with people you don't want to do the same walk down for every single chorus. You'll amaze your friends if you can learn atleast four or five different variations of that. The easiest one is: A13 Ab13/G13 F#13/ Then of course you will want to add your own personal take on the I VI II V. I over use the #9 but that's just me.
Members Jim Soloway Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James I over use the #9 but that's just me. Me too.
Members Jimmy James Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jim Soloway Me too. Capital offenders! Can't think of what it's called off the top of my head but this is the actual chord I abuse in place of a V that's supposed to be a dominant 7th. -8--- -8--- -7--- -6--- -7--- ------ It's an E7#9 with a C on top. E7#9#5? I finger the top two strings (G & C) with my pinky. That way I have the option of playing the C or not, but it's always there when I need it.
Members roswell1965 Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James I over use the #9 but that's just me. You're not alone... Ther was this guy about 35 years ago that liked the #9 as well. Black dude. BIG hands...
Members Terje Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 The big change is here: A7 | | | | | D7 | | A7 | | | E7 | E7 | A7 | E7 | Whether or not you choose to play an Bm7 in front of the second E7 chord isn't so important, what makesit jazzy is that you're not going down to the IV chord after the V. Most likely you'll wanna do this too: |A7 |D7 | | | | D7 | | A7 | | | E7 | E7 | A7 | E7 | Adding lots of extensions to the chords... I don't know, you'll often get in the soloists way doing that. Lots of great jazz players used only the basic Dominant 7th chord, or even just parts of that. Leave some air for the guy taking the solo, let the soloist add the extensions.
Members Jimmy James Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Terje The big change is here:A7 | | | || D7 | | A7 | || E7 | E7 | A7 | E7 |Whether or not you choose to play an Bm7 in front of the second E7 chord isn't so important, what makesit jazzy is that you're not going down to the IV chord after the V. Most likely you'll wanna do this too:|A7 |D7 | | || D7 | | A7 | || E7 | E7 | A7 | E7 |Adding lots of extensions to the chords... I don't know, you'll often get in the soloists way doing that. Lots of great jazz players used only the basic Dominant 7th chord, or even just parts of that. Leave some air for the guy taking the solo, let the soloist add the extensions. This goes back to our previous discussion. It's a personal stylistic choice as opposed to right or wrong. My bass player and B3 player are both serious soloists. We play blues with a funk jazz philosophy. Often times I'll not play the root to any of these chords and only play extentions. The bass covers that. Everything is covered without stepping on one another. I do lay back during the solos. I like space. I'll toss in extensions here and there. It still breathes but is more harmoniclly interesting to my ears that straight 7ths. I can't stand the straight stuff. It's boring and not as hip. I saw Mike Stern with Victor Wooten the other night and they do the same thing.
Members Jimmy James Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by roswell1965 You're not alone... Ther was this guy about 35 years ago that liked the #9 as well. Black dude. BIG hands... You don't mean Kareem Abdul Jabar do you?
Members G.A.S._is_good! Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by SonicTonic | A7 | | | || D7 | | A7 | || E7 | D7 | A7 | E7 | The following is very generic - you can apply 6s, 9s, 11s and 13s anywhere you think it sounds good - but our band will do a few variations to the progression. Add a ii/iii/biii turnaround in bars 7 and 8. For the above in A: A/A/A/AD/D/A-Bm/C#m-CmE/D/A/A-E -or- we'll change the last two bars to throw a bit of a turnaround "feel" to it........ A/A/A/AD/D/A-Bm/C#m-CmE/D/A-D/A-E -or- when there's the early change to the IV in the first four bars..........we'll add a simple half-step rise on beat four of the bar when we land back on the I chord ...... A/D/A-A-A-A#/AD/D/A-Bm/C#m-CmE/D/A-D/A-E .....the last structure is exactly how we do "Stormy Monday Blues" - only we do it in G. But the progression itself is exactly the same with mostly 9s and/or 13s as the chord variations (usually A13, D9, E9 and the minors being simple Xm7 chords).
Members Terje Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James This goes back to our previous discussion. It's a personal stylistic choice as opposed to right or wrong. I never said anything was roight or wrong. I'm just saying that the ii-V change suggested above (which I like very much) is really just a V-V change in disguise. The major difference is between doing a V-V change (or a ii-V change) and a V-IV change. They are both right and sound good but if you wanna play some of those jazzy heads you'd better not make the V-IV change or it'll be pretty dissonant in a bad way. I do lay back during the solos. I like space. I'll toss in extensions here and there. It still breathes but is more harmoniclly interesting to my ears that straight 7ths. I can't stand the straight stuff. It's boring and not as hip. Well, if you play the straight stuff then the soloist can play the hip stuff you know. Get out of his way Here's what I no very often. I play only the 3rd and the 7th of the chord. If the 7th is no good I'll play the 6th instead. No root, no 5th, no extensions. Then it's open territory for the soloist to color those chords anyway he wants. Just a thought, nothing right or wrong about it.
Members Jimmy James Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Terje I never said anything was roight or wrong. I'm just saying that the ii-V change suggested above (which I like very much) is really just a V-V change in disguise. The major difference is between doing a V-V change (or a ii-V change) and a V-IV change. They are both right and sound good but if you wanna play some of those jazzy heads you'd better not make the V-IV change or it'll be pretty dissonant in a bad way. Well, if you play the straight stuff then the soloist can play the hip stuff you know. Get out of his way Here's what I no very often. I play only the 3rd and the 7th of the chord. If the 7th is no good I'll play the 6th instead. No root, no 5th, no extensions. Then it's open territory for the soloist to color those chords anyway he wants. Just a thought, nothing right or wrong about it. I've always understood the relationship between a II-V change and a IV-V change. But you like to keep reminding me of it. It's just a personal preference for what I like to play. The II-V sounds different than the IV-V regardless of how closely related the the II and the V is. Hey, maybe I listened to too much Robben Ford and not enough Muddy Waters but I like big jazzy chords in blues. I never bump heads with the soloist because although I play extentions I'm not busy. It's perfect in a trio and you simply lay back with a fourth member. Ultimately if you're covering a specific traditional style of blues and want to nail it, you have to play it the way they did it on the record. But I have to do my own thing even when I cover Albert Collins. I'm not much of a retro guy. In the latest issue of Guitar Player Magazine with Carlos Santana on the cover there's a cool lesson on Jazzy Blues. There's some cool three note voicings for 6th chords and diminished chords. Oh what fun!
Members Terje Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James I've always understood the relationship between a II-V change and a IV-V change. No, it's the V-IV change, not IV-V. Let's do it again... Here's a very common blues progression... |C7|C7 |C7|C7|F7|F7|C7|C7|G7|F7|C7|G7| ... you hear just about every tired Chicago blues band play. Now, let's say you wanna "jazz it up" and you wanna play a bebop blues haed like for example Tenor Madness over these chords here's what you need to do. You need to change that F7 chord coming after the G7 for it to sound smooth. Now if you wanna play... |C7|C7 |C7|C7|F7|F7|C7|C7|Dm7|G7|C7|G7| ... or... |C7|C7 |C7|C7|F7|F7|C7|C7|G7|G7|C7|G7| ... doesn't really matter, as long as you don't play... |C7|C7 |C7|C7|F7|F7|C7|C7|G7|F7|C7|G7| If you wanna do this change... |C7|F7 |C7|C7|F7|F7|C7|C7|G7|G7|C7|G7| ... then that's cool too, it really follows the melody in this case but it's not as important as the above change. Have I made myself unecassarily clear?
Members Terje Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James It's just a personal preference for what I like to play. The II-V sounds different than the IV-V regardless of how closely related the the II and the V is. I love that sound too. Hey, maybe I listened to too much Robben Ford and not enough Muddy Waters but I like big jazzy chords in blues. I never bump heads with the soloist because although I play extentions I'm not busy. It's perfect in a trio and you simply lay back with a fourth member. Well, for one thing, with my balalajka I can't play the big chords. Unless I only play the extensions. Usually i don't do that, I stay with the 3rd and the 7th. Together with the bass line. Sounds pretty damn hip to me actually I'm not much of a retro guy. Me neither.
Members Jimmy James Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 I already had it. That was a typo. I obviously meant V-IV change. Thank you for being unnecessarily clear. Check the progression I already wrote. Hey, playing blues with a balalajka sounds very cool.
Members SonicTonic Posted December 11, 2002 Author Members Posted December 11, 2002 Thanks for the replies! I've been messing around with substituting relative minor chords, tritones, passing chords, ii-V-I progressions, diminished chords, etc.. and having a good time. I figured this is a great form to study in order to grasp substitution etc..
Members Terje Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James I already had it. That was a typo. I obviously meant V-IV change. Thank you for being unnecessarily clear. It's a bad habit of mine Check the progression I already wrote. Already did. I like it. Hey, playing blues with a balalajka sounds very cool. Thanks. I've been doing it for some time now. I play it with a slide on my pinky. And then I write lyrics in swedish. Pretty wierd but it's fun. We've just made a CD and hopefully we'll be able to reach an audience with this stuff.
Members Jimmy James Posted December 11, 2002 Members Posted December 11, 2002 Originally posted by Terje It's a bad habit of mine I know. Originally posted by Terje We've just made a CD and hopefully we'll be able to reach an audience with this stuff. You should post how people can get a hold of it so we can check it out. You're famous here and you have a built in fan base. I sold a lot of CDs here last year in the same way. Go for it!
Members Terje Posted December 12, 2002 Members Posted December 12, 2002 Originally posted by Jimmy James You should post how people can get a hold of it so we can check it out. You're famous here and you have a built in fan base. I sold a lot of CDs here last year in the same way. Go for it! Need a homepage first. Well, actually I don't people could just contact me and they can get it that way. But with a homepage we could have some sound clips too. I'm working on it.
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