Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 I know what modulations are. so let get that out of the way right now, and I have a decent 'working' knowledge of them, most of the songs I write modulate at least once. I would like to learn more about tradisional methods and uses for modulation, I understand how secondary dominents are used, and half step modulations. I also understand how modulations work in fugues and stuff, most often going to the key of the dominent for a short while. I don't really understand too much above that, I can always tell when a peic of music is modulating, but my ear gets confused, and I have trouble telling where, unless it is something ultra common, like a half step, a fourth or fifth. I also have expirmented on my own, with a lot of minor third modulations for creepiness, and several multi step major to minor (or vice verse) modulations (even though that is really not needed, i realize). I know some composers like to have a little constant modultaing section thingy from time to time, but I get lost when I try to do it. Anomandaris, I'm looking at you. and evan, and r0g3r, and Eristic, and maybe if any of the Jazz/Fusion Gods wants to decend to this forum and amswer some questions. but mostly Anomandaris he seems to be good for this kind of stuff.
Members thamiam Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 If you want to listen to a great library of unique modulations, listen to Shostakovich.Since I can't understand half of the stuff he does, I'll let Anoman or someone else take a crack at the definitive answer for you.
Members estew72 Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 in jazz, you can modulate basically wherever the hell you want by just throwing in a ii-V like just look at any coltrane tune a common thing to do is go ii-V, then make the V chord a ii chord and then ii-V again, going around the cycle of fourths. for instance: Am7-D7-Dm7-G7-Gm7-C7-Cm7-F7(-Bbmaj7) that right there is the bridge to rhythm changes and it's used in other tunes in other keys and whatnot- I think you get the idea
Members estew72 Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 in classical music, a really effective way of modulating to the dominant key is throwing in #4's to lead into the 5 (which would be the new root). Since it's a tritone, you can add alot of tension before you resolve in the form of a modulation
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by estew72 in jazz, you can modulate basically wherever the hell you want by just throwing in a ii-Vlike just look at any coltrane tunea common thing to do is go ii-V, then make the V chord a ii chord and then ii-V again, going around the cycle of fourths. for instance:Am7-D7-Dm7-G7-Gm7-C7-Cm7-F7(-Bbmaj7)that right there is the bridge to rhythm changesand it's used in other tunes in other keys and whatnot- I think you get the idea aka Secondary Dominent
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by estew72 in classical music, a really effective way of modulating to the dominant key is throwing in #4's to lead into the 5 (which would be the new root). Since it's a tritone, you can add alot of tension before you resolve in the form of a modulation cool, I've kinda noticed this before, but it is nice to know that I was not just noticing stuff that was not there. BTW the thing about holding down the tritone, didn't Bethoveen like to do that a lot. thanks
Members estew72 Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by ninjaaron aka Secondary Dominent no no no no take another look at that chord progression the first ii-V is in G; a secondary dominant would put you in the key of D, but the ii-V cycle puts you in C, going in fourths rather than fifths
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by estew72 no no no notake another look at that chord progressionthe first ii-V is in G; a secondary dominant would put you in the key of D, but the ii-V cycle puts you in C, going in fourths rather than fifths unless you placed the dominent chord on the I insead of the II, then it would Put you in C.
Members estew72 Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by ninjaaron unless you placed the dominent chord on the I insead of the II, then it would Put you in C. that's essentially what it's doing like in oleo or anthropology, they aren't even ii-V's, the bridge just goes D7-G7-C7-F7 then back to Bb dude, that's not called a secondary dominant
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by estew72 that's essentially what it's doing like in oleo or anthropology, they aren't even ii-V's, the bridge just goes D7-G7-C7-F7 then back to Bb dude, that's not called a secondary dominant I always thought that a Secondary Dominent was just when you played a Dominent chord where it is not expected for modulation purposes. I have a song that is in Dm, and then in the progression there is a D7, which segways to the G major section of the song... I always called that a secondary dominent. could I, ninjaaron, be... wrong!?!?nah
Members WattsUrizen Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 Ninja, thanks for the PM, but unfortunately if I was to answer your question now, I wouldn't be able to give you as detailed an answer as I would like. I am heading out very soon, but hopefully I'll be able to find the time to go through this in detail when I get home, or at least tomorrow morning. It is a very broad and complex subject, and so I'll try to cover the most common techniques in reasonable depth, and at least mention other techniques briefly. Might take me a few posts though.
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 SWEET!! I would just like to tell you that I really respect your knowledge on this kind of stuff. I have enjoyed reading every single one of your threads on this particular forum.
Members estew72 Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by ninjaaron I always thought that a Secondary Dominent was just when you played a Dominent chord where it is not expected for modulation purposes. I have a song that is in Dm, and then in the progression there is a D7, which segways to the G major section of the song... I always called that a secondary dominent. could I, ninjaaron, be... wrong!?!? nah secondary dominants are used to modulate to the key of the dominant ONLYthey are, ie. the "dominant of the dominant"so in G, a secondary dominant would be A7; a C7 would NOT be a secondary dominant chordok?
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by estew72 secondary dominants are used to modulate to the key of the dominant ONLYthey are, ie. the "dominant of the dominant"so in G, a secondary dominant would be A7; a C7 would NOT be a secondary dominant chordok? I can dig that. It makes sense. cool, thanks
Members D8rkn3ss Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 Heres a shocker gentlemen: You can have secondary dominants leading to any chord in a key, exept for the Leading tone chord viio (Diminished). Key of C you can have A7 to dm, B7 to em, C7 to F, D7 to G, E7 to am. then it starts over as for secondary leading tone chords: Key of C : C# dim to dm, d#dim to em, edim to F, f#dim to G, G#dim to am This works the same way in every key. Its not modulation, its called Altering the chord quality.
Members Macblah-1 Posted February 1, 2003 Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by D8rkn3ss Its not modulation, its called Altering the chord quality. I agree. A secondary dominant CAN be used to modulate from one key to another, but secondary dominants as such shouldn't be considered modulations. Basically a secondary dominant is just a non-diatonic b7 chord with a temporary dominant function.
Members ninjaaron Posted February 1, 2003 Author Members Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by Macblah-1 I agree. A secondary dominant CAN be used to modulate from one key to another, but secondary dominants as such shouldn't be considered modulations. Basically a secondary dominant is just a non-diatonic b7 chord with a temporary dominant function. like in all of those cheesy 50's musicals?
Members ninjaaron Posted February 3, 2003 Author Members Posted February 3, 2003 bump, this thread will live until Anomandaris has come:mad:
Members motherlode Posted February 5, 2003 Members Posted February 5, 2003 No tonic cadence in the old key, no dominant to the new key---the tonic cadence is bypassed in favor of an instantaneous, unprepared modulation--- the " instant thru-elision". The common tone (the last note of the MELODY in the old key, the first in the new one) ties the keys together smoothly...ex, going from the key of C to Ab under a 'C' in the melody...
Members ninjaaron Posted February 11, 2003 Author Members Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by ninjaaron Anomandaris?
Members WattsUrizen Posted February 12, 2003 Members Posted February 12, 2003 Ninja, sorry dude, but I haven't been able to get on for a while, my father had spent the last few days in hospital so most of my free time went out the window. But anyway, I did do some thinking about this, and I came up with a mental list of modulation techniques. The good thing is, there's a lot to talk about. The bad thing is, it'll take a long time. If you'll bear with me, I'll do my best to mention everything, but I'll have to do it in bits and pieces. At the moment though things are a bit busy for me, so I won't be able to really get started any time soon. Most likely in a week or two when I go back to uni (and I'll be at home more often) I'll find the time to write up some stuff. Sorry for keeping you waiting.
Members ninjaaron Posted February 13, 2003 Author Members Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by Anomandaris Ninja, sorry dude, but I haven't been able to get on for a while, my father had spent the last few days in hospital so most of my free time went out the window. But anyway, I did do some thinking about this, and I came up with a mental list of modulation techniques. The good thing is, there's a lot to talk about. The bad thing is, it'll take a long time. If you'll bear with me, I'll do my best to mention everything, but I'll have to do it in bits and pieces. At the moment though things are a bit busy for me, so I won't be able to really get started any time soon. Most likely in a week or two when I go back to uni (and I'll be at home more often) I'll find the time to write up some stuff. Sorry for keeping you waiting. cool:cool: I'll stop bumping now:D
Members D8rkn3ss Posted February 16, 2003 Members Posted February 16, 2003 I read in a jazz theory book (and this applies clasically as well) that you can substitute for almost any chord another chord of the same note name but a different quality. Example: cm7-->C7 or CM7. the whole point is to create tempry V-I cadences leading up to the ultimate cadence of the Phrase, or section whatever the case may be. Secondary leading tone chords are just dominant chords without the root and an added flat 9. example G7, or G7b9 (spelled GBDFAb), is interchangeable with bdim7 (BDFAb), which in both cases resolve to a C chord of some form. These arent modulations unless the key center is changed totally, think of it as just for fun, taking a walk through other parts of your nieghborhood that you wouldnt normally take to get to the same destination.
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