Members onusx Posted February 17, 2003 Members Posted February 17, 2003 I've played mostly metal and punk, and have recently started branching out, taking lessons, listening to jazz, blues, more classic rock. I know some basic theory, but i haven't been able to find blues lessons that explain exactly what's going on. I know my blues scale and pentatonics, and can play plenty of little licks and trills that will fit a I-IV-V. could someone please explain how to apply modes and imply chord changes, how the scales fit the vii chords? say you have an a blues, A7 D7 E7; why are we using all dominant 7ths? If this is an A major blues, why does an A minor pentatonic sound better over it than A major? How can those chords fit together when you've got C# as the iii of the A7 chord, and C natural as the vii of the D7? what key are we really in, and how can i move through modes/scales that give a sense of movement away from the pentatonic box patterns? if anyone can direct me to a good online blues reference, i'd appreciate it. i haven't really studied the way dominants work, and i know that's a big part of this since these are all dom7 chords. will i ever learn blues theory by continuing to study more classical harmony and counterpoint and etc., or is it kind of doing its own thing? i know there are plenty of people on this forum who know their blues, any help 'getting it' would be greatly appreciated. any blues standards i should try and learn as examples of these concepts? thanks, brian
Members Terje Posted February 17, 2003 Members Posted February 17, 2003 OK, I might be able to answer some of that. You're right, they're all dominant 7th chords, and theoretically it doesn't really work out. I mean the I chord shouldn't really be a dominant 7th chord, should it? But in the blues it is, because of the scale used, it has a b7th in it so there you go. The blues scale sounds fine over minor chords but the real blues sound is the clash between the b3rd of the scale and the major 3rd of the I chord. The C of the A minor pentatonic against the C#of the A7 chord. However, you will notice if you study a few blues meoldies that very often the b3rd is playedor sung over the IV chord (in this case D7), and there the b7th happens to be C.Why does it work? It just does, it's one of those dissonant sounds we've grown to like. Which is basically the answer to any question about why we like certain sounds in music, we've learnt to like them over the years, we've decided that we like them. There's no magic or supernatural about it, no divine thing happening, it's just humans deciding for themselves what they like.About modes... you could play the mixolydian scale of each chord too, a lot of jazz players do that (not only that but they havethat as a mainstay) when they play the blues. So A mixolydian over A7, D mixolydian over D7 and E... ah, you're getting it!There areother tricks you can do with modes in a blues setting if you want it to sound jazzy. I'll tell you what I know if you like. Just let me know The really cool note to play in ablues, the one often overlooked by people who know their minor pentatonic scales a little too well, is the b5th. And that notedoes not fit with any of the chords, in theory, but it sounds so damn right at times. And no, you don't have to resolve it either, not all the time. Let it hang in the air at times too. Very intense sound. Also, if you listen to older blues players you'll hear that they reallydig into those dissonant sounds a lot more than what you hear today. That b3rd isn't really a b3rd, it's in motion and a little sharp of a b3 actually. Played right it's very sour.
Members Phil Brigham Posted February 17, 2003 Members Posted February 17, 2003 You've raised some interesting issues. Let's take the A minor pentatonic scale you mentioned, and look at how each note in the scale fits (or doesn't fit) with the I IV V changes you mentioned - which usually are 7th chords, and are implied sometimes even if no-one is playing them. Low A - will sound good against A7, OK against D7, and is a passing tone against E7 (meaning play it, but don't hang on it too long) Low C - really is a passing tone against A7 (one reason some classical musicians cringe when they hear blues or rock is that the b3rd would never be heard against a major sounding chord) ...and as a low C might not sound good against D7 (even though C is a chord tone of D7), and is definitely a passing tone for E. Middle D - passing on A7, chord tone on D7, chord tone for E7. Middle E - chord tone on A7, passing on D7, chord tone on E7. Middle G - chord tone on A7, passing on D7 and E7. Middle A - chord tone on A7 and D7, passing on E7. Middle C - passing tone on A7, chord tone on D7, passing on E7. High D - passing on A7, chord tone on D7 and E7. High E - chord tone on A7, passing on D7, chord tone on E7. High G - chord tone on A7, passing on D7 and E7. High A - chord tone on A7 and D7, passing tone on E7. Any of the C notes can be bent up a 1/2 step to C# against A7. Any of the G notes can be bent up a 1/2 step to G# against E7. Any of the D notes can be bent up a whole step to E against A7 or E7.
Members onusx Posted February 17, 2003 Author Members Posted February 17, 2003 hmm, thanks for the input. in messing around with some of the patterns i was starting to notice that it wasn't really just the chord tones that sounded good, but the dissonant notes... i tend to throw some extra blue notes in when i'm improvising, so i get the flat 5 in but also sometimes hit both the minor and major 7 on the way to resolving to the 1. i guess my main point of confusion is over how to move between patterns or tonal centers so that get all those notes in there, but in the right places. so far, i may be wrong, but it seems like it sounds ok to just play a blues scale in the key of whichever 7th chord i'm playing, but i'm not totally sure how to move between scales fluidly. i haven't focused that much on digging into the flat 5, but that's definitely something i'm going to start listening to. can you explain a little more how to use the tritone in there to get tension and resolution? i really want to be able to imply the movement between chords, and that's an idea that i'm just starting to grasp. i've been told that this is where modes come into play in classical theory, that depending on your mode or scale you imply various degrees of the scale, and that lends movement to your solos; i assume that resolution of modes works the same way as cadences in chord progressions, and that i might want to lead from mixolydian back to ionian, right? terjes, i'd be really interested in any more input on modes in blues. if i'm playing mixolidian over the 7, am i still playing the same A minor blues scale, but starting on the V, or should i actually play a full A mixo scale? thank you both for your help, brian
Members N4Player Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 All this talk about 7ths...when it comes to blues, I play mostly 9ths. Took me awhile to get "the blues", but when I did - I was hooked on the 9ths. My leads over them are a mixture of pents with blues notes in between (alot of 1/2 steps). Tough to throw a scale into it and make it sound right...but it can be done. -Bobhttp://guitar-wav.com
Members Terje Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Please dear Lord tell me I'm not reading this... Originally posted by Phil Brigham Low C - really is a passing tone against A7 (one reason some classical musicians cringe when they hear blues or rock is that the b3rd would never be heard against a major sounding chord) ... Any of the C notes can be bent up a 1/2 step to C# against A7. Are you nuts? Have you gone totally crazy? Have you ever really played the blues?Now, the b3 of the blues scale rubbing against the 3 of the I chord is the blues sound. Sure, as I said it's pretty common in blues melodies that the b3 of the scale is sung over the b7 of the IV chord (since they are the same note) but really, the b3 is not a mere passing tone. It's the one to lean on, use it as often as you like. It's held against the I chord by both players and singers and the sound is cool. Just like the b5 sounds cool (or actually very intense) when you lean into it.Bend it, sure. But you don't need to bend it up to the 3 of the I chord at all. In fact, it sounds better if you don't. Bend it, but don't go all the way up to the 3 of the I chord and you'll have a real authentic, and old blues sound. The same goes for the b5, don't need to bend it all the way up to the 5. Not even over the IV chord. So you actually get the slightly out of tune b9 over the IV chord. But that sounds right. Listen to T-Bone, he does that all the time. I really don't care what classical musicians think about the blues. Those with any knowldge and any kind of ear like it and the others don't know anything about music anyway Sorry for the harshness Phil but this time you are soooo wrong.
Members edeltorus Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 > Bend it, sure. But you don't need to bend it up to the 3 of the Explaining the blues is a waste of time imho. It's based on the tribal africal pentatonics, and they use pure thirds, not our western tunings. If you bend the minor third up a bit you can play a pure third. That's one reason why it sounds good over the blues. Same applies to the seventh btw. (through it's harder to "feel" the note). I'm not sure, but I think the only notes that are still pure are the 4th and the 5th. Nils
Members Phil Brigham Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Terje: I agree with you that the b3rd being played against the I7 chord is a big part of what blues is...I was referring to the question in the original post, where the question was raised (I think) - I brought up classically trained musicians as someone who might not fathom a minor note with a major chord (Eddie Kramer, engineer/producer for Hendrix, Kiss, etc. supposedly can't stand the b3rd against a major chord) I personally use the b3rd as a passing tone against the I7 - in other words I play it, but i doubt I'd let it hang there for long...but other blues players may choose to sustain it. I like putting vibrato on it, or bending it somewhere between C and C# - whatever seems to fit at that moment - I wouldn't call myself a "bluesman", but there certainly is a "bluesy" quality to my playing - I'm not ignorant of how blues works, Terje... I have also used the major pentatonic as the basis for playing blues (but knowing when to use notes outside the major pentatonic). I'll bend the B to C# (against A7), or B up a 1/2 step to C (against D7), or letting a C# (bent B) come back to B for the E7.
Members Terje Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Phil Brigham I'm not ignorant of how blues works, Terje... No, I'm sure you're not and I was a bit harsh in my reply. Sorry about that. Still, the question in the intitial post was "explain blues theory to me". And blues theory doesn't "work" in relation to traditional theory. So, I think it's wrong to try and explain it too much from that angle. The blues is "wrong" theoretically but sounds "right".
Members Phil Brigham Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Terje: I'll agree that blues does tend to fall off of the theory page... However, a lot of times, I'll use say a major scale as a reference point, even though I rarely if ever play major scales. So even though blues breaks some rules, you can at least try to begin to explain it - the use of Dom. 7th chords, even for the I chord. The b3rd and major 3rd can come into play, the #5th, the b7 and the major 7, etc.
Members chrisgraff Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Theorizing the blues, is like painting math equations. Buy some records, and listen.
Members Terje Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Phil Brigham However, a lot of times, I'll use say a major scale as a reference point, even though I rarely if ever play major scales. So, we're actually doing it the same way then
Members Terje Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by chrisgraff Theorizing the blues, is like painting math equations.Buy some records, and listen. Good point. Buy all the T-Bone Walker CD:s you can.
Members Reeko2 Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Question: Am I the only one in here that likes to mix both a Minor and Major Pentatonic over the I7 chord? While I tend to use the Minor more, sometimes I like to add in or switch to the Major for a little different sound.
Members Terje Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Reeko2 Question:Am I the only one in here that likes to mix both a Minor and Major Pentatonic over the I7 chord? No.
Members Viktor Johanson Posted February 18, 2003 Members Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Reeko2 Question:Am I the only one in here that likes to mix both a Minor and Major Pentatonic over the I7 chord?While I tend to use the Minor more, sometimes I like to add in or switch to the Major for a little different sound. Certainly not. Pentatonic minor and Major scales combined, that gives you a lot of fun notes to play around with: 1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 b7 These two scales cover both Dorian and Mixolydian sounds. I like using a mix of the pentatonic minor scale and the Lydian b7 scale over the I7. 1 2 b3 3 4 #4 5 6 b7 These two scales also cover both the Dorian and Mixolydian scales, plus you also have a #4.
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