Members Jimmy James Posted March 26, 2003 Members Posted March 26, 2003 Ok, let's say you're on stage sitting in with a funky ass B3 player. He goes into a nasty Am7 vamp that goes on forever into infinity. One chord baby. Let's roll. Are you going to mindlessly play SRV licks over it like it's your last day on earth while your brain has shut down and your fingers go robot? No! You're gonna be hipper than thou, use the brain that God gave you, and play some boss arpeggios over this cool vamp. First off it goes without saying that you can play an Am or Am7 arpeggio over this vamp. Go for it and make it swing, but there are other arpeggios as well that you can use that sound ultra hip. Dig this. An Am chord is the II chord of a GMaj chord scale. The scale reads like this: Gmaj Am Bm CMaj D7 Em F#dim Since these chords are all related to the same scale you can use an arpeggio based on each one of these chords over that Am vamp. Here's two to get you started. Do some home work and work out the rest. Here's a GMaj7th arpeggio: ------------------------------------------ -----------------------7-8--------------- ----------------4-7---------------------- ----------4-5--------------------------- -----2-5------------------------------- 2-3------------------------------------ Here's an Em arpeggio Yngwie style: ----------------3--7----------------------- -------------5------------------------------ ---------4---------------------------------- -----5-------------------------------------- -7------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- Now work out the rest, have fun, and Rock out with your cock out!
Members crowekd Posted April 8, 2003 Members Posted April 8, 2003 An intriguing post...just realized that these are the arpeggios based around the A dorian scale (i.e., Gmaj). A nice idea to use modal arpeggios as opposed to simply the notes of the scale.
Members Jimmy James Posted April 8, 2003 Author Members Posted April 8, 2003 Originally posted by crowekd An intriguing post...just realized that these are the arpeggios based around the A dorian scale (i.e., Gmaj). A nice idea to use modal arpeggios as opposed to simply the notes of the scale. Ditto.
Members Terje Posted April 11, 2003 Members Posted April 11, 2003 Can you write it out in notes? For us balalajka players.
Members Jimmy James Posted April 13, 2003 Author Members Posted April 13, 2003 #1 F# G B D F# G B D F# G #2 E G B E G B
Members SJB Posted April 16, 2003 Members Posted April 16, 2003 Aminor 7 vamp? I'd be blowin' A whole half (a, b, c, d, eb, f, g, g#) over that too in the 4,8,16 etc bars. What about some BbMinor minor too too slip in and out of occasionally You could always throw in some straight Eminor pentatonic too for a more neutral sound Or dump an E altered scale (F melodic minor) to pull the I real hard
Members FuzzBob Posted April 30, 2003 Members Posted April 30, 2003 In addition to arpeggiating triads and triadic extensions based on the relative chords from A Dorian, try these: Arpeggiate some 3-or 4-voice quartal and quintal chords. It gives you a McCoy Tyner-ish edge, and your badass B3 player might pick up on that and run with it. Don't be afaraid to go outside a little with these chords. Substitute some pentatonics at the ninth and fifth, i.e. use the B and E minor pentatonic scales. If the B3 player, being badass, is laying down a badass comp that just won't quit, pick up on that and play off the rhythms in the comp, sort of like taking the Nile Rogers concept into the lead realm. The B3 player will then pick up on what you're doing, and now you have a push-pull thing going with the organist. That's when the magic happens.
Members billybogner Posted April 30, 2003 Members Posted April 30, 2003 OK - Couldn't resist. Not only can we show you the arp., but let's put it to use, shall we? Ready, set , go. Em, Cmaj7, A11, C, Am6 or D7 (with some cool cromatisism throw in) - All over the Am7. I hope this translates....... -6(s)-7--------7-10-9-8-7------------------------------------ ---------8---8----------------8-----------------10-12-14-12(s)-13 -----------9---------------------9------------12------------------- ------------------------------------10(s)-14---------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- -12-15-12-13-14--------------------------------------- ---------------------13----------------------------------- -------------------------14------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------
Members buddastrat Posted May 25, 2003 Members Posted May 25, 2003 I wouldn't think about GM7 though. To me, that's unnecessary. If I wanted that sound, I would think A minor {dorian} and highlight the 6th, 7th etc...It's much simpler to me like that. But everybody wants to superimpose stuff. Once in a while I'd go outside on that vamp, but I don't like too much of that. Some guys want to do diminished/altered stuff all over the place, and that's fine, but to my ears it usually forced, or they don't realize, they've come full circle to sounding out of key!! Too much theory sometimes. I want to hear some tasty chops from the heart, not a math lecture. But, a little outside here or there is nice when played with conviction and like a spice. The theory heads are gonna be pissed by this next idea. Here's a nice excercise I like to use with my students: For some new sounds without thinking too much, try this, If playing over a single Am vamp, take any note anywhere, forget the theory mumbo jumbo for the time being, and make the notes say something take it anywhere melodically or rhythmically. ANY note will be able to work if you phrase well and resolve. Even the worst sounding note on the fretboard {maybe a C# in this case?} and use it as part of a cool lick over the vamp. Anything can work very nicely. Sometimes all this theory stuff is ridiculous. It's like people are adding and subtracting instead of playing from the heart. But theory definitely has it's place, and is important for a person to learn fundamentals and foundations. But this excercise totally forces you to work on phrasing. AND it's like taking off the training wheels {scales}. And it will either sound like {censored} or sound great. There ain't no inbetween. I'm not dissin' theory. It has it's place. And for me, it's a tool not the blueprint. The blueprint should be the heart.
Members Hackmonkey Posted June 8, 2003 Members Posted June 8, 2003 Excellent post. Modes and theory are great tools, explore them, learn them, feel comfortable with them, then forget them. Id rather hear someone playing from the heart in a pentatonic box than 'calculating' all over the fretboard.
Members FuzzBob Posted June 19, 2003 Members Posted June 19, 2003 I think both have their place, often in the same solo. Calculating and forcing yourself outside can add an uneasy tension, and playing straight can provide a release. Seeing as this is a one-chord vamp, the chords aren't there to provide the tension and release. The challenge is on you to provide it yourself.
Members scottl Posted June 24, 2003 Members Posted June 24, 2003 Triad arpeggios can provide some very hip sounds. These are not diatonic triads, but superimposed triads. Over our static A minor vamp, here are some hip ideas: 1) Bsus4 or Esus2 triad. These give a very hip "Henderson" sound. 2) F#diminished triad- NO 7th. (A and C as well) This gives a nice string skip and is very Scofield/Henderson sounding as well. 3)G#maj triad. Gives some nice colors over the minor i chord. If memory serves me correct you can hear Henderson use it a bit in his solo on Dense Dance. 4) You can also move triads through sequences such as a tritonic system to arrive at your "target". Metheny will frequently do this. I have some great materials on this topic as well as other stuff. If anyone wants anything, just email me. Scott
Members JazzRules Posted June 30, 2003 Members Posted June 30, 2003 Jimmy, what's with the quote? Yeah I meant it to be funny, ONCE. To see that quote all the time will only stir up trouble. I know that's not your intent.
Members JazzRules Posted June 30, 2003 Members Posted June 30, 2003 Originally posted by scottl Triad arpeggios can provide some very hip sounds. These are not diatonic triads, but superimposed triads. Over our static A minor vamp, here are some hip ideas:1) Bsus4 or Esus2 triad. These give a very hip "Henderson" sound.Scott Interesting as the "sus" note will harmonize nicely over the A minor. I get it.
Members Bluemusic Posted July 29, 2003 Members Posted July 29, 2003 Im going to try some of the ideas that scott outlined. I would probably instictively have done the diatonic arp thing just through some exercises I do when practicing scales. You know. 135,246,357,469 Then 135,642,357,964. And so on. But what I would eventually settle into is to try and engage the B3 dude with some interplay. Maybe trade fours. then two then ones then MAYBE we can zone in on the same line and build it up. Maybe funk it up with a complimentary lick and permutate it with him. I like the solo approach but really love when the musicians interact and communicate. I love to make music like that and engage the listener (hopefully). Humor is cool too, maybe quote some other minor tunes. I think I may be getting off topic but has anyone ever zoned in on someone in the audience, preferably someone who is dancing and try to interpret what moves they make. Sometimes the person catches on what you are doing and the reactions are cool. Chicks usually dig it at first and then get embarrassed. I think Im going off the deep end here.
Members Mr.Bojangles Posted August 10, 2003 Members Posted August 10, 2003 Originally posted by scottl Triad arpeggios can provide some very hip sounds. These are not diatonic triads, but superimposed triads. What's the difference between a diatonic triad and a superimposed triad? Sorry, I'm kinda new at this.
Members simeon Posted September 18, 2003 Members Posted September 18, 2003 a diatonic triad would be any triad that's inside the scale or tonality - if we're talking about A Dorian, then that's Am , Bm, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj any triad that isn't one of those will be non-diatonic, or as scott calls them, superimposed cheers sim
Members JazzRules Posted September 27, 2003 Members Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by Stanley Another great thread. Three cheers to Jimmy James. Even though I am a keyboard player, I find this thread very useful (in composing). Believe it or not, there are a few jazz musicians here:D
Members bigmun Posted September 28, 2003 Members Posted September 28, 2003 There's nothing like belaboring the obvious.
Members miker2c Posted October 6, 2003 Members Posted October 6, 2003 Ok, this stuff is awesome, and tons of food for thought and practice. I just wanted to add that we have been talking all the time about this Amin as being the ii chord--and working in and out of the Dorian mode or tonality. The obvious is seeing the Amin as the vi chord--the aeolian/minor tonality. We can also look at it as the iii chord--for a Phrygian tonality. We can have a whole new pallet of colors when superimposing the chords of the Fmaj scale over this Amin vamp. So, after exploring all this stuff from a Dorian point of view--go Phrygian! When I was in kindergarden, the teacher used to always get on my case for coloring outside the lines. But, in music, that's where a lot of the color is!!! So, I say don't be afraid to color outside the lines!! Besides, some of these jazz guys here could just about come up with a scale to fit any note you play over just about any chord!! I heard someone say once--if you play a wrong note once, it's wrong...if you play two or more times, it's color!! Make it sing! Mike
Members Left Of Cool Posted December 9, 2003 Members Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by Jimmy James Ok, let's say you're on stage sitting in with a funky ass B3 player. He goes into a nasty Am7 vamp that goes on forever into infinity. One chord baby. Let's roll. Are you going to mindlessly play SRV licks over it like it's your last day on earth while your brain has shut down and your fingers go robot? No! You're gonna be hipper than thou, use the brain that God gave you, and play some boss arpeggios over this cool vamp.First off it goes without saying that you can play an Am or Am7 arpeggio over this vamp. Go for it and make it swing, but there are other arpeggios as well that you can use that sound ultra hip.Dig this. An Am chord is the II chord of a GMaj chord scale. The scale reads like this:Gmaj Am Bm CMaj D7 Em F#dimSince these chords are all related to the same scale you can use an arpeggio based on each one of these chords over that Am vamp. Here's two to get you started. Do some home work and work out the rest. I dont get how taking the chords from the scale that the Am is the ii of would fit? Then you couldnt you just play arpeggios from any chord scale that has Am in it, which would pretty much mean playing any arpeggio?
Members miker2c Posted December 10, 2003 Members Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Left Of Cool I dont get how taking the chords from the scale that the Am is the ii of would fit? Then you couldnt you just play arpeggios from any chord scale that has Am in it, which would pretty much mean playing any arpeggio? It is just an example of one possibility that you could use. Taking Am as the ii chord, and using the Gmaj scale as the basis actually will throw you into a Dorian sounding tonality--different from the typical Am (or A aeolian) tonality. It will work especially well looking at Am as the ii because, theory-wise, the ii is often substituted for the I chord and can be considered a "tonic character" or a "sub-dominant" character chord, depending on how it is used. Using the Am chord as representative of the iii chord of an Fmaj tonality will through you a little further afield, but will still work, since now you will be getting more a phrygian-type of tonality, that could be turned into a Latin feel, depending on the rhythmical context. With an Am vamp, we can't exactly use it with any scale where the "A" note appears--since we are working in our scales and modes (traditional theory/harmony) generally off a related major scale, the minor chord only occurs in the major scale as the ii, iii and vi chords--so those would be the primary choices for something like this. Obviously, using the Am as the vi chord, is our typical minor scale--the aeolian mode, so the two more "distant" scale relations would be to see the Am as a ii or a iii chord. Was that clear as mud? Hope it helped a little. Mike
Members Left Of Cool Posted December 10, 2003 Members Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by miker2c It is just an example of one possibility that you could use. Taking Am as the ii chord, and using the Gmaj scale as the basis actually will throw you into a Dorian sounding tonality--different from the typical Am (or A aeolian) tonality. It will work especially well looking at Am as the ii because, theory-wise, the ii is often substituted for the I chord and can be considered a "tonic character" or a "sub-dominant" character chord, depending on how it is used. Using the Am chord as representative of the iii chord of an Fmaj tonality will through you a little further afield, but will still work, since now you will be getting more a phrygian-type of tonality, that could be turned into a Latin feel, depending on the rhythmical context. With an Am vamp, we can't exactly use it with any scale where the "A" note appears--since we are working in our scales and modes (traditional theory/harmony) generally off a related major scale, the minor chord only occurs in the major scale as the ii, iii and vi chords--so those would be the primary choices for something like this. Obviously, using the Am as the vi chord, is our typical minor scale--the aeolian mode, so the two more "distant" scale relations would be to see the Am as a ii or a iii chord. Was that clear as mud? Hope it helped a little. Mike maybe I should get the term "Am vamp" cleared up first
Members Auggie Doggie Posted December 11, 2003 Members Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by Left Of Cool maybe I should get the term "Am vamp" cleared up first Morning vampire?? Is there such a thing?
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