Members Sputnik Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy Better than that, there is only one note. It's F#. I'm absolutely positive we can relate everything back to F#. After all, other notes and chords only provide Dissonance to F#. They all bear some relationship to F#, and in some music the other notes and chords occasionally resolve to F#. Therefore, there is nothing else but F#. Don't even try to argue with me. I am right. Wasn't there a Pope who ordered that the F# be removed from all pieces of music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Sputnik You can compose anyway you like, one chord or forty eight chords but you cannot define a key with just one chord. G7 will mean different things in different contexts. I believe my previous post explained on a technical level why you need more than one chord.There is absolutley nothing dissonant about a diatonic V7 chord, hence the name diatonic, "being of the same key". Both the IV7 and V7 want to resolve, they create tension, movement. An example of dissonance would be say using an Ab7 in bar 10 of a G blues. You're missing the point. V7 is the most dissonant chord of any diatonic key. If there was no dissonance, it wouldnt make for a satisfying cadence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy I wouldn't call it an issue of semantics (in other words, I'm taking issue with your semantics ). It's a concept which fails to explain the inherent functional relationship between harmony and melody. To call everything other than a root-position triad "tension" or "dissonance" fails to take into account almost everything we understand about music theory. Furthermore, it fails to take into account music where something other than a root-position triad is the maximum level of consonance acheived. Music based entirely on quartal and quintal harmony can't be explained. Polytonal music can't be explained. Twelve tone music can't be explained. These are styles where a major triad does not exist. Therefore, a stacked fourth chord might not always be a dissonance. It might be the greatest level of consonance attainable for that particular piece. Dissonance and consonance are relative. Also, a V7 chord isn't the maximum level of dissonance. It's the maximum level of tension. There's a huge difference here. it is all relative, correct. But if you can make that leap, you can also make the leap that dissonance and tension usually go hand in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy Better than that, there is only one note. It's F#. I'm absolutely positive we can relate everything back to F#. After all, other notes and chords only provide Dissonance to F#. They all bear some relationship to F#, and in some music the other notes and chords occasionally resolve to F#. Therefore, there is nothing else but F#. Don't even try to argue with me. I am right. civil discussion is a poor notion I take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Anomandaris Vague guides for improvisation are no substitute for understanding proper functionality.I understand your point, but in making these sorts of oversimplification, a rather clear disclaimer is in order.And again, the very fact that a tension exists between the V and the I should tell you that there can not be only one chord. Sure, the V is related to the I in the most pervasive relationship in tonality. However, they can not be collapsed into one, since their function is quite different. I respect your knowledge of theory, but again, its just theory. Vague concepts, hark, can lead to some awesome insights that may not have been yielded otherwise. the opposite of being a theory genuis is also true. As far as there being only one chord, I take that as being a generalization for the over all key, everything else being a tension, dissonance, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sputnik Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by D8rkn3ss You're missing the point. V7 is the most dissonant chord of any diatonic key. If there was no dissonance, it wouldnt make for a satisfying cadence. No I am not, again, there is nothing dissonant about a diatonic V7. Excuse me for being blunt but in this it is not a matter of opinion, you are incorrect. If it's diatonic it is not dissonant, it can't be. It creates tension, movement because the seventh of the V chord wants to resolve to the third of the I chord, that is the "satisfying cadence" you are attempting to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garublador Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy Man, I'm a jackass. It sounds like you understand then. From what I've observed, Terje likes to act like a jackass in the name of education. He seems to think he does some good by doing that, but in reality he seems to do more harm than good. That method of teaching may have a place, but the HC Forums aren't it, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Terje This is not vague at all. It's very clear and practical. Only for those with a very rigid view of music theory. "... can not be collapsed into one... " Did i say rigid? It is vague in the sense that there isn't a great deal of precision about it. It is a huge generalisation, and one that overlooks many important aspects.No, not for those with a very rigid view of theory. For those who don't have a good knowledge of music theory. So they understand this for what it is, and don't mistake it for something it is not.As for saying that "just because two things are related doesn't mean they can't be collapsed into one" I don't see how that is rigid. I think you've been reading too much Indian mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by D8rkn3ss I respect your knowledge of theory, but again, its just theory.Vague concepts, hark, can lead to some awesome insights that may not have been yielded otherwise. the opposite of being a theory genuis is also true. As far as there being only one chord, I take that as being a generalization for the over all key, everything else being a tension, dissonance, whatever. I agree with you that this is a generalisation for a key. However a key is not a chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Terje I usually claim that there are only two chords, the I chord and the V chord. The V chord create tension that is released with the I chord. Everything else is just variations on either of these two. But actually you can look upon the V chord as tension in relation to the I chord, dissonant notes driven against the I chord, and actually a coloration of the I chord. This is how Indian Classical music works in a way since you'll always have the root and the 5th as a drone in the bass and the meldoy is played against this. It creates tension and release, but in reality only one chord. And actually the tension of the V chord only exists cause we have a I chord to relate to. "Jack......you're doing it wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffdaddy Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by D8rkn3ss it is all relative, correct. But if you can make that leap, you can also make the leap that dissonance and tension usually go hand in hand. You know how all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples? Same with tension and dissonance. Originally posted by D8rkn3ss civil discussion is a poor notion I take it? It was a JOKE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted April 23, 2003 Author Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by Anomandaris It is vague in the sense that there isn't a great deal of precision about it. It is a huge generalisation, and one that overlooks many important aspects. But that's exactly the point. This is a generalization! And as such it has a value. To simplify the theory in the heat of the moment, when you're up there improvising. It can actually help a lot. And if you listen you'll hear it used a lot. It's basically what good solos are all about, creating tension that is later released. So working with only these two enteties can be a help at times not to get lost in to many details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted April 23, 2003 Author Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy It was a JOKE! I got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by Sputnik No I am not, again, there is nothing dissonant about a diatonic V7. Excuse me for being blunt but in this it is not a matter of opinion, you are incorrect. If it's diatonic it is not dissonant, it can't be. It creates tension, movement because the seventh of the V chord wants to resolve to the third of the I chord, that is the "satisfying cadence" you are attempting to talk about. The 7 of the V7 is by definition dissonant and was not allowed for many centuries in writing practice but soon came to be accepted. look up your music history. Im done arguing about semantics, but tension and dissonance are virtually synonomous. good for you if you disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by Anomandaris I agree with you that this is a generalisation for a key. However a key is not a chord. another example of semantics. Tonality is chord based, emphasizing the one chord, correct? so in that case it would be about the key, which is named for the one chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sputnik Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by D8rkn3ss The 7 of the V7 is by definition dissonant and was not allowed for many centuries in writing practice but soon came to be accepted. look up your music history. Im done arguing about semantics, but tension and dissonance are virtually synonomous. good for you if you disagree. The seven of the V7 (dominant seventh chord) is a b7, for G7 the seven is F not F# which the major seventh. The F# is not being allowed to be written in the key of C is what you are confusing this with. You have no clue, it's people like you posting on internet sites who pretend to knowledge they do not have who waste other's effort with bad information. Either that or you are just trolling.As a wise man once said "You can't argue with ignorance" so I leave you to your bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members invisible_8cat Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 Wow, this is the most interesting post I've seen so far on HC. It even beats those obscene posts on OJ. But this is like arguing politics which just leads to deadends b/c physicists some day will form a universal theory which connects everything in the known universe. But, IMO, stuff like this just confuses beginners and will not make u a better player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thinliner1 Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 >There is only one chord the only chord that exists in "reality" is the "Harmonic series". And it doesn't care about what any of us thinks or says, or wishes to see and not see. The Tonic--Dominant strength is there too, in the harmonic series, but there's a lot more there (above and below any fundamental pitch) that's just as "real" but would seem ailien or out of tune to most of us. And all of it is just as "important" to the whole than the relative "loudness" of the first couple of members in the series Tonic--Octave--Dominant--Octave--Tenth (if I remember right) etc. Equal temperament is also "not real", nor any man-made temperament or tunning system for that matter. The whole world of sound is more dissonant (to us) than not. Hence, dissonance is more "real", in reality, than consonance is. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 24, 2003 Members Share Posted April 24, 2003 Originally posted by Sputnik The seven of the V7 (dominant seventh chord) is a b7, for G7 the seven is F not F# which the major seventh. The F# is not being allowed to be written in the key of C is what you are confusing this with.You have no clue, it's people like you posting on internet sites who pretend to knowledge they do not have who waste other's effort with bad information. Either that or you are just trolling.As a wise man once said "You can't argue with ignorance" so I leave you to your bliss. I have had enough of your holier than thou bull{censored} and pathetic ad hominem attacks. You dont know me or my back ground. But since you pissed me off, I'll tell you. I know there is no F# in the key of C, asshole. Did'nt I complain in another post that I just wanted civil discussion, yet I'm being labeled the troll? {censored} that. I've studied theory at the University level and have played guitar for well over 8 years. First thing they teach is that the V7 is a form of dissonance and tension. You and I Mr. Dickhead, are arguing over sementics, your just caught up with not being able to accept my term. too bad. If you really think Im ignorant look up some of my other posts, being mislabeled as a troll just because of YOUR shortcoming to accept an alternative view is arrogant. As for you giving up, *appluase* Dont be such a bitch, its just music. Just to tack on some actual music information on this post, initially any note added to a fundamental triad I.E. 7th 9th, 11th, 13th, were considered dissonant for a long time. And a big thank you to Roger, very very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffdaddy Posted April 24, 2003 Members Share Posted April 24, 2003 Tension and dissonance ARE NOT the same thing. Don't confuse them! Yes, the 7 in a V7 chord was considered dissonant at one point in history. 500 years ago. 200 years before that you couldn't end a piece of music on a I triad. You could only end it on a P5 interval. We don't consider a triad dissonant at this point in history. Nor do we consider the 7 in a V7 chord to be dissonant. Don't argue from a historical angle if you're going to refuse to accept current standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D8rkn3ss Posted April 24, 2003 Members Share Posted April 24, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy Tension and dissonance ARE NOT the same thing. Don't confuse them! Yes, the 7 in a V7 chord was considered dissonant at one point in history. 500 years ago. 200 years before that you couldn't end a piece of music on a I triad. You could only end it on a P5 interval. We don't consider a triad dissonant at this point in history. Nor do we consider the 7 in a V7 chord to be dissonant. Don't argue from a historical angle if you're going to refuse to accept current standards. Thats the whole point: Dissonance and tension are highly subjective. But coming from a strictly DIATONIC point of view, the V7 is the most tension causing and dissont chord. Without them you would have no authentic cadences. Further, You cannot talk of anything about current harmonic paractices if you dont even understand the reasoning of how they came about. Yes, the V7 is no big deal today, because we do {censored} all with tonality, atonality being the focal point as far as current music goes. But as far as diatonic standards, the V7 is a source of dissonance. Yes today we dont call it that, but that doesnt mean its untrue and doesnt effect how we hear music. So all i ask, since you seem to grasp the historical aspect, is that you understand that even though its disregarded today by the majority of people, does NOT mean it has no signifigance. Thank you, drive through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted April 25, 2003 Members Share Posted April 25, 2003 Darkness is quite correct. The dominant seventh chord has the highest degree of tension in diatonic music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted April 25, 2003 Members Share Posted April 25, 2003 Originally posted by Kachana At the end of the day it appears as though this is a semantic argument, not about what a chord is per se (as there are clearly, by definition, many differnt chords), but about the musical function of chords.If we define a chord along the lines of a series of notes that provides tension or resolution in relation to other series of notes, then I suppose it is valid to say there is one chord, but this is looking at chords at a high level of abstraction (which isn't wrong, just another perspective).At other levels of analysis, e.g., how certain chords sound and the specific colours they have in them, it's not useful to think of all chords as being one.At least that's how it seems to me in my far from expert opinion. Can't believe I missed this all the way back on page 1, but a great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffdaddy Posted April 25, 2003 Members Share Posted April 25, 2003 Originally posted by Anomandaris Darkness is quite correct. The dominant seventh chord has the highest degree of tension in diatonic music. Check back a couple of pages. It was me, not him, that pointed out the thing about the V7 having the most tension. Tension. Not dissonance. From Robert W. Ottman's "Elementary Harmony", Chapter 1. "Consonance and Dissonance. These terms are used to subjectively evaluate the pleasantness (consonance) and unpleasantness (dissonance) of two or more tones sounding simultaneously or in close proximity." So what you want to say is the four notes of the V7 chord, all of which are in the scale, are more dissonant than a major triad built on the b5? There is a HUGE difference between tension (the need to resolve) and dissonance. A V7 chord pretty much has to resolve to the I chord. A truly dissonant chord, such as one built on a note outside the scale, does not have the need to immediately resolve. Take a Neopolitan chord, for example. Two of its three components aren't included in the scale. It creates a strong dissonance with the tonic. However, it never resolves to the I chord. It has dissonance, but not tension. Just like a V7 chord has tension, but not dissonance. Don't tell me I don't understand how common practices came about. Given my background, I'm pretty sure I've got a much better grasp on theory than you. Don't {censored}in' tell me to drive through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted April 25, 2003 Members Share Posted April 25, 2003 Originally posted by riffdaddy Check back a couple of pages. It was me, not him, that pointed out the thing about the V7 having the most tension. Tension. Not dissonance.So what you want to say is the four notes of the V7 chord, all of which are in the scale, are more dissonant than a major triad built on the b5? There is a HUGE difference between tension (the need to resolve) and dissonance. A V7 chord pretty much has to resolve to the I chord. A truly dissonant chord, such as one built on a note outside the scale, does not have the need to immediately resolve. Take a Neopolitan chord, for example. Two of its three components aren't included in the scale. It creates a strong dissonance with the tonic. However, it never resolves to the I chord. It has dissonance, but not tension. Just like a V7 chord has tension, but not dissonance. The V7 is a dissonant chord. The interval of a minor seventh is a dissonant interval that must resolve down by step. Dissonance does not have to be chromatic. The resolution of dissonance is one of the biggest issues in diatonic counterpoint. As Darkness said, tension and dissonance are virtually synonymous. You are correct, the V7 does resolve to the I. A chromatic chord does not have to, but that's due to the nature of chromatic techniques. The Neapolitan bII is a chromatic chord. It is not necessarily dissonant, depending on how it is approached. But if we suppose it is dissonant, then it does have tension. Sure, it may not resolve to the tonic, since it acts the same as II and moves to V, but this doesn't mean it doesn't have tension. And this a forum to discuss music, not to play my dick's bigger than yours. If you've got a strong background in theory, good for you. So do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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