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What is the Time Signature?


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Posted

What is the likely time signature for the piece?

 

-Jingle Bells

-Do (a Deer)

-O Susannah

-The First Noel

-Oh Where, Oh Where Has my Little Dog Gone?

-London Bridge

-Brahms Lullaby

-O Come All Ye Faithful

-Auld Lang Syne

-Home on the Range

-For he's a jolly good fellow

-Row, row, row your boat

-Ode to Joy from Beethoven's 9th Symphony

-Oh Christmas Tree (O Tannenbaum)

-Quando m'en vo (Musetta's Waltz) From La Boheme

-Greensleeves

-I've been Working on the Railroad

-On top of Old Smokey

-Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star

-Silent Night

-Theme from "Mission Impossible"

 

Thanks!

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Posted

Jingle Bells 4/4

-Do (a Deer) 4/4

-O Susannah 4/4

-The First Noel 3/4

-Oh Where, Oh Where Has my Little Dog Gone? 3/4

-London Bridge 4/4

-Brahms Lullaby 3/4

-O Come All Ye Faithful 2/4

-Auld Lang Syne 6/8

-Home on the Range 3/4

-For he's a jolly good fellow 6/8

-Row, row, row your boat 3/4

-Ode to Joy from Beethoven's 9th Symphony 4/4

-Oh Christmas Tree (O Tannenbaum) 3/4

-Quando m'en vo (Musetta's Waltz) From La Boheme 3/4(like any waltz)

-Greensleeves 3/4 6/8

-I've been Working on the Railroad 4/4

-On top of Old Smokey 3/4

-Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star 4/4

-Silent Night 3/4

-Theme from "Mission Impossible" 5/4

 

 

 

 

That was fun!:D It was like being in school again.

 

I didn't just do your homework, did I?

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Posted

if you did, he's probaly going to get an A!

 

well, maybe A-, cos i think Row, Row, Row Your Boat is in 6/8...

 

;)

 

sim

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Posted

 

Originally posted by F-holes

I guess he will get an A because Row,Row, Row, Your Boat is in 3/4. There is no secondary pulse in the rhythm.


'

 

 

Hmm...try to sing it in 4/4 - I would count it like that, or maybe it would be considered 12/8? But definately not 3/4 - or those 4th would be very "short".

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Posted

 

Originally posted by cozimnot

How can you guys tell? Just by feel, or is there a more scientific way to approach this?

 

 

It's the feel, mostly. Try tap your foot to a song (Row, Row, Row your boat for instance...) and notice how the markings would very likely be on the three "Row's" and "boat", then "Gent-" of Gently, "Down" and "Stream" (if that is the correct lyrics!) and the last beat of that measure wouldn't hit a note, but just fill out space. Do you follow?

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Posted

 

Hmm...try to sing it in 4/4 - I would count it like that, or maybe it would be considered 12/8? But definately not 3/4 - or those 4th would be very "short".

 

 

I don't think 4/4 is the best choice. The pulse moves in threes.

 

In 3/4, the MER-ril-y MER-ril-y MER-ril-y MER-ril-y part

would be played as quarter notes. The pulse at ROW ROW ROW

would would be consistant. This is how I usually see it written.

 

6/8 will work, though it will alter the pulse.

It would not stress the second ROW or the second and fourth MERRILY.

 

I think if I played it, I might even think of it as 3/8. I would then just tap my foot at each ROW.

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Posted

 

Originally posted by F-holes



I don't think 4/4 is the best choice. The pulse moves in threes.


In 3/4, the MER-ril-y MER-ril-y MER-ril-y MER-ril-y part

would be played as quarter notes. The pulse at ROW ROW ROW

would would be consistant. This is how I usually see it written.


6/8 will work, though it will alter the pulse.

It would not stress the second
ROW
or the second and fourth
MERRILY[i/].


I think if I played it, I might even think of it as 3/8. I would then just tap my foot at each ROW.

 

 

Actually, I think we sort of agree on this one - the feel is definately "triplet-like". Still I woudln't consider the triplets to be quarter notes, the tempo would be quite fast, in that case. I would count the main beats as I've written above, but to show the triplets I'd call it 12/8, or, on second thought, 6/8 - since the pulse more likely is 2/4. Now I'm beginning to confuse myself...

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Posted

The time signature comes from the music, not the other way around, so there's no absolute here. That being said, to my mind it's definitely 6/8.

 

That long-short, long-short pattern -

 

gent-ly down-the...... life-is but-a

 

is classic 6/8 at that tempo. If you cut the tempo to 1/3 you'd have the same pattern, but it would have a 3/4 waltz feel.

 

Anyone who played J.P. Souza tunes in marching band would recognize RRRYB as 6/8 in a second. The feel is similar. And if you know European folk tunes, it sounds like a typical 6/8 dance tune.

 

The lyrics spell it out.

 

Row row

 

Row your boat

 

Gently down the

 

stream

 

 

I hear two beat measures there.

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Posted

okay so when i tap my foot along from row to stream, i tap 7 beats.....

 

so how do you figure out time signature based upon how many taps you have? i've never quite understood that....

 

row-1

row-2

row-3

your

boat-4

gent-5

ly

down-6

the

stream-7

 

so it's in 6/7 ?? (is there a 6/7??) how do you figure out what it's in?

 

even if i tapped wrong (but i didn't, it feels right....) based upon what i tapped right here, how would you write a time signature?

 

granted i think if you put it into notation based upon my tappings all of that first verse would be in one measure????

 

so confused :confused:

 

maybe row-boat is 4/4 and gent-stream is 3/4 ???

Posted

Originally posted by holy reality

okay so when i tap my foot along from row to stream, i tap 7 beats.....


so how do you figure out time signature based upon how many taps you have? i've never quite understood that....


row-1

row-2

row-3

your

boat-4

gent-5

ly

down-6

the

stream-7


so it's in 6/7 ?? (is there a 6/7??) how do you figure out what it's in?


even if i tapped wrong (but i didn't, it feels right....) based upon what i tapped right here, how would you write a time signature?


granted i think if you put it into notation based upon my tappings all of that first verse would be in one measure????


so confused
:confused:

maybe row-boat is 4/4 and gent-stream is 3/4 ???

 

Well, first off, remember that the last word, "stream", is 2 beats long, not just one. When you sing it you'll notice a pause for a beat before continuing with the "merrily" part.

 

Most people would break the 8 beats into two bars of 4, because it's easier to read a smaller number of beats per measure. With 8 or any higher number you might loose your place mentally counting. Conversely, you could go to 4 bars of 2, but I think that's a little excessive since in this case 4 beats kind of lines up with the words well.

 

So, let's go with 4 beats per measure then. That means that no matter how we divide the bar, the first number is always going to be 4. The time signature could be "4/4" or "4/8" or whatever, but since we've gone with 4 beats per bar, the first number will be 4.

 

So how to come up with the second number? Well, it's always going to be either 1 (whole note), 2 (half note), 4 (quarter note), 8 (eighth note), etc. So no 5's or 7's or anything. The second number just indicates what rhythmic value gets the beat. Typically, quarter notes are the common way to go. You could write it as 4/8 if you want; then you'd have 4 eight notes in the bar, each eigth note getting a word and a tap of the foot.

 

The problem with this song, however, is that the "merrily" section has 3 notes to the pulse. You could just write it as (in 4/4) an eigth note triplet, but since it's the only subdivision in the melody, and there aren't any 2-per-beat feeling subdivisions, it would probably be best to pick a time signature that reflects a consistant division of 3's for the beat.

 

Let's look at 6/8. According to the logic used above, the number says there are 6 pulses per bar, and the eigth note gets the pulse. However, this is kind of deceptive. When you see something that is a multiple of 3, such as 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, etc, you can read it as "fast triple" where the beat is really a group of 3 notes that would normally be the pulse. In 6/8, you would normally have 6 pulses of eigth notes per bar, but in fast 6/8, the first beat has 3 eight notes, which leaves 3 more, so the second beat has 3 eigth notes. This ends up with 2 beats per measure, with 3 notes per beat.

 

So, before we decided that there would be 4 beats to the measure for "Row, Row, Row Your Boat". In order to get 4 beats to the bar with a 3 feel, you'll need 4 beats of 3 notes, or 12 notes. This is where 12/8 would be a good time signature to go with.

 

Some people would choose to go with 6/8 instead, with 2 beats per measure and twice as many measures as 12/8 would have. The reason is that 6/8 is a very common time signature and it would be more familiar to the performer to see that.

 

So when do you read in 'fast' triple or 'slow' duple? Most of the time when the tempo is given at the beginning of the piece, it will have a picture of a dotted quarter note = some number. Since the dotted quarter note equals 3 eighths, then this would be a triple feel. If the picture is of an eighth note = some number, then the eighth note gets the pulse and you'd be playing it in a duple feel.

 

What if there isn't a tempo marking? In that case, pretty much all 3/8's, 6/8's, etc that can be divided into triplet beats, will be. The only time it isn't is when the pulse is quarter notes, like 3/4 or 6/4. Why? Over a long period of time people began assuming that and arrangers and composers decided the clarity in that would be good. While it's not a set in stone understanding, it is a good rule of thumb to go by.

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Posted

Any song could be counted out from 1 till the end - a 32 bar song in 4/4 would go to 4x32=128. That's what you've done above. As it happens, most all pop music has a pulse to it of 2, 3, or 4 beats throughout. So instead of counting as you did above, you can count

 

1 2 3

2 2 3

3 2 3

4 2 3

 

for 3/4 time, or

 

1 2 3 4

2 2 3 4

3 2 3 4

4 2 3 4

 

for 4/4 time.

 

In the 4/4 example above, each four beats is one measure, so

 

1 2 3 4 is the first measure,

2 2 3 4 is the second measure

3 2 3 4 is the third measure, and

4 2 3 4 is the fourth measure,

 

for a total of sixteen beats.

 

 

When you did this:

 

row-1

row-2

row-3

your

boat-4

gent-5

ly

down-6

the

stream-7

 

 

you made a mistake by leaving 8 off the end. If you went on counting, you'd see that "Merrilly" comes on beat 9, so "stream" lasts for two beats. The whole song is 16 beats.

 

Sometimes, a song can be written in more than one time signature - that's what the discussion above is about.

 

I recommend a trip to Barnes & Nobles or Borders for a book that explains time and key signatures - there's some good ones out there.

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Posted

ahhh okay that's what threw me off... stream having a 1 beat rest after it

 

so basically it (the first part) could be done in 4/4 then?

 

the problem is, i can play in time signatures if i have a band around me becuase i just connect to their beat/rhythmn but other than 4/4, 2/4, 3/4, etc... i don't really know exactly how to count it that well....

 

now if the band is playing and i'm resting i can count along with them fine though, so it's just like, if i'm sitting alone, or trying to write something, i really don't know what time signature to put it in or how to interpret what i'm reading.

 

we didn't really cover much than absolutely basic theory in my school band

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Posted

it's really not that hard - all you have to remember is that the first number in the time sig is how many beats there are in a bar and the second number is how fast you count those beats...

 

so 4/4 means 4 beats in a bar counted as quarter notes

 

6/8 means 6 beats in a bar counted as eigth notes (so count them twice as fast as 4/4)

 

so the second number of the time signature will only ever be 4, 8 or 16 (sometimes you see 2 as well, but not that often)

 

the first number can be any number you like

 

7/4 - 7 beats in the bar counted as quarter notes

7/8 - 7 beats in the bar counted as eigth notes (twice as fast)

3/4 - 3 notes in the bar counted as quarter notes (with a triplet, swing feel)

15/8 - 15 beats in the bar counted as eigth notes

 

etc etc

 

perhaps people could suggest some songs in odd time signatures and you could have a listen and practice counting them through...

 

i can think of a few off the top of my head...

 

salisbury plain - peter gabriel (7/4)

 

money - pink floyd (7/4)

 

take five - dave brubeck (5/4)

 

echo - joe satriani - (5/4)

 

turn it on again - genesis (main riff is 9/4 i think - havn't heard it for ages)(edit - actually they just played it on the radio, spookily enough, and the main riff is two bars of 4/4 followed by a bar of 5/4 and i think the bridge bit involves two bars of 3/4 followed by a bar of 4/4 and then it all goes pear shaped...)

 

anybody suggest some more?

 

cheers

 

sim

Posted

 

Originally posted by simeon


7/4 - 7 beats in the bar counted as quarter notes

7/8 - 7 beats in the bar counted as eigth notes (twice as fast)

3/4 - 3 notes in the bar counted as quarter notes (with a triplet, swing feel)

15/8 - 15 beats in the bar counted as eigth notes


 

 

Sorry if I seem bent on correctness, but hen the division is eight notes, it isn't necessarily twice as fast. 7/4 and 7/8 could be completely identical aurally, just appear differently on a page. Although I'm sure you probably think of 7/8 as combinations of 3's and 2's for a lilted beat feel; I do too.

 

As for 3/4, I don't really feel this as a swing feel, unless the tempo is like quarter=200 or something. I think "waltz" would be a better term since most of the time the quarter note is still getting the pulse, rather than there being one pulse per bar with 3 subdivisions.

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Posted

okay i guess that makes sense but how do you know what beats get the pulse and whatnot like the above guy is talking about?

 

and i could have sworn there was a 7/5 time signature... ?

 

anyway since i'm a tool fan, i know the main chorus riff of lateralus goes 9,8,7

 

what i do not know is the numbers on the other sides of the slash or how exactly you would go about counting that odd rhythmn

 

but umm... maybe i should try to count something a bit easier

 

it's making sense though, and i do recall being taught this before.. that says something for my memory :/

Posted

 

Originally posted by holy reality

okay i guess that makes sense but how do you know what beats get the pulse and whatnot like the above guy is talking about?


and i could have sworn there was a 7/5 time signature... ?


anyway since i'm a tool fan, i know the main chorus riff of lateralus goes 9,8,7


what i do not know is the numbers on the other sides of the slash or how exactly you would go about counting that odd rhythmn


but umm... maybe i should try to count something a bit easier


it's making sense though, and i do recall being taught this before.. that says something for my memory :/

 

 

The number on the other side can pretty much be whatever rhythmic value you want it to be. The trend for that past several decades (maybe even century) for mixed meter, such as many Tool songs, is to use eighth notes as the division. You could very well use other note values, but eighth is the value chosen for subdivisions for pretty much all notation. Performers have gotten used to it so might as well keep up a good thing that works. Since 4/4, 3/4, and 6/8 are the most commonly used time signatures in notation, and they all use eighth notes as the division of the beat, then it only makes sense to keep that as a constant.

 

As for 7/5, there can't be a 5 because there isn't a 5th note rhythmic value. Just multiples of 2: (1) 2 4 8 16 32 64 etc. The number on the right (or the bottom when it's on a staff) will always be a rhythmic value like an eigth note (8) or a quarter note (4) or so on.

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