.

[Stanley]

.

[Redsweater]

The whole point of a mode is to set up the tonal center of a song somewhere else, while keeping the same notes.

 

Say you play notes in the intervals I III IV (1-3-5)

 

itd be C E G which is basically the C major appregio

 

BUT if you change the tonal center to A but kept the same order of the notes

 

A C E

 

if you count the chromatic steps between A-C and C-E, youll find there is a space of 2 between A-C (minor third) and 3 in cc-e (major third)

 

So basically, by shifting the tonal center to A, you create a minor feel (darker) using the same intervals (um, general diatonic intervals)

 

sorry if im wrong, im tired

[Redsweater]

in other words, it really depends on what notes you play and how you play them. Playing in cadence (consecutive notes in a scale) gets boring quick. Play in intervals and youll see how the distance between two notes matters MORE than one note itself. (Relative pitch)

[simeon]

the sound of different ragas depends on their step patterns (or the intervals between the notes) - the same is true of the various western scales and their modes

 

it's very difficult to describe the sound or emotional content of a particular scale in words - i think the best thing to do would be to play these modes over a pedal tone of the root and decide for yourself what sort of sound they have - also figure out the chords in each mode and try composing sequences with them

 

i would suggest starting with the seven major modes and then looking at the modes of harmonic minor and melodic minor

 

cheers

 

sim

[bassmantele]

The short answer is no. Western music has no equivalent to Indian ragas. Emotion is conveyed by melody and harmony, but not is association with particular scales.

 

There's a story about Mozart as a child that I heard a few years ago. When Mozart was five or six years old, his father was having him play for someone. The man was puzzled how a child could convey emotions that he had never felt. He asked Mozart to play passion, heroism, emotional loss, and other mature emotions, and each time the child improvised music that conveyed the feeling perfectly. The approach to emotion and mood is intuitive, rather than more explicit as in Indian music.

[Awake77]

I suppose this would be very generalized, but this makes a little sense:

 

Ionian - happy, brightness, warm

 

Dorian - jazzy, powerful, a cooler, more twilight kind of sound

 

Phrygian - Spanish flavor, darker than the dorain mode. Mysterious.

 

Locrian - Surreal, airy

 

Mixolydian - Bluesey, can sound majestic. Another 'warm' mode. Not quite as 'obliviously happy' as the Ionian mode.

 

Aeolian - Sad. Mournful.

 

Locrian - Evil, sinister

 

These are just a few. There are other modes that have their own characteristics. The images they evoke arent set into rule, however. You have to get a feel for them and use them the way you see fit.

[qwerty]

> You have to get a feel for them and use them the way you see fit.

 

That is true. It depends on how you use the "mode." You can write something in Ionian which is gentle and sorrowful depending on how you concentrate on the intervals within the mode, how small the phrase is, and also depending on the sensitivity of the listener.

 

 

Forgive my ignorance; is that what we would usually label as "traditional" music?

 

 

At the simplest level, we can draw a distinction between the major and minor modes (the 3rd determining whether the mode is major or minor). The minor sounding more subdued or doleful than a major mode.

 

Out of ignorance, I have to say that we don't have a "codified" understanding of specific emotions tied to particular modes.

 

In things like Irish traditional music, there was said to be three classes of music: lullabies (suantrai), laments (goltrai), and joyful music (geantrai). Those classifications are more of a folk tradition rather than something graspable and applicable to specific music modes used by Irish traditional music. Traditional lullabies can be rather interesting though, as they tend to have a certain "form" rather than a certain "mode."

[radcliff]

When you say Locrian - Surreal and Airy, do you mean Lydian?

[Awake77]

Woops:) Yeah, it was real late:)

[MorePaul]

Stanley

 

I'd say in a general sense, there are colorations associated with various structures (scales, modes, cadences, etc)-- as the guys have detailed earlier here.

 

 

 

You may want to listen to "The Well Tempered Clavier" by JS Bach as it shows how key modulation can lead to color (it may be subtle to you , so I don't know how/if your ear will pick it up depending on your familiarity with Western music).

There is still, to this day, debate on Bach's intent with the phrase "Well-Tempered" with regard to temperaments used in this piece.

 

Moving a tonal center can adjust its impact. SciAm ran an article a few years back about cultural perception of tonal center.

Different cultures (like even Brit and America) tend to speak in a "different key" - this seemed to strongly correlate with how listeners in a culture would resolve musical paradoxes like a sherpard function (a sound that appears to go up and down at the same time...like the "vases and Faces" optical illusion)

So perception is modified.

 

 

anyway, just some thoughts...I'd be interested to hear your impressions of "The well Tempered Clavier"

 

Now - please give us a list of, say, 5-8 works,albums, etc you would suggest for us to listen to.

 

maybe something to get us upon the difference between Northern and Southern musics

 

Is there, perhaps, a childeren's introduction record that would be good for us?

[Stanley]

.

[blackrose]

Joe Satriani had a video lesson on guitar.com about scales and modes that would be a perfect addition to this thread. I don't think they have it anymore though. If anyone knows the video I'm talking about, please, feel free to post a link

[bonaire]

I was thinking of the lesson when I read your reply - look under Joe's items:

 

http://www.guitarworld.com/0100/framesets/lessons.html

[MorePaul]

So Stanley -- you gonna hook us up with the Indian music goods?

[Stanley]

.

[MorePaul]

yuppers!

seems like a perfect cultural exchange time

 

---------

 

Now - please give us a list of, say, 5-8 works,albums, etc you would suggest for us to listen to.

 

maybe something to get us upon the difference between Northern and Southern musics

 

Is there, perhaps, a childeren's introduction record that would be good for us?

[MorePaul]

Meanwhile, back int the paul cave I'm thinking of stuff that might be of interest to you

[edeltorus]

...maybe you'll tab out some simple indian tunes. At least I would have fun to tinker with such stuff a weekend long.

 

NIls

[Stanley]

.

[BTunes]

Awake77 has the right idea. Eastern and western ways may use different approaches but achieve the same effect of evoking moods with music. I ended up here looking to discover the various moods experienced with scales of different keys, but then realized that the 7 modes Awake77 describes evoke 7 different moods in any key by shifting certain notes in that keys scale.

*********** BUT **************

Dorian (jazzy, powerful, a cooler, more twilight kind of sound) in G with lowered third and seventh, has the same notes as a regular F major scale but beginning with G. So does that mean the F major scale evokes jazzy, powerful, a cooler, more twilight kind of sound? No, I guess not because major scales are Ionian (happy, brightness, warm).

[Stanley]

.

[johnnymartino]

Stanley,

 

 

A very good book to link Indian classical music with the Western musical system is W.A.Mathieu's Harmonic Experience.

The writer seems to be rooted the Indian classical tradition, and his system is fabulously clear and ingenious.

 

You'll also find a deep understanding of the modes in Western music, with remarks to Indian classical music and their links. From what i understand reading the book, the modes in both musical traditions are the same, although it seems the Indian tradition has more, although i'm not sure about that since i don't know the Indian ragas.

 

As an example i reread the part on the Lydian mode today, where the writer says (and i quote) : "In North Indian music this mode is called Yaman, and musicians often achieve a wondrous, floating effect by avoiding the resolution notes of G and C for long passages."

 

As a second example i quote from a passage on the Ionian (Major) mode : "When Indian kids are first learning their sa-re-ga they sound not unlike American kids learning their do-re-mi. But the mode rarely shows up in raga. Too stable i think, for everyday dronal fare."

 

 

 

It is the only book i know of that offers this kind of material.

[gennation]

Don't believe everything you read, it's reference for what is heard.

 

There is much written about 'this mode is happy' 'this mode if the brightest, this mode is the darkest', etc...

 

It is what it is in your hands, many time defying what has been written.

 

Take the Lydian mode, it's is written that it's the 'brightest' of the modes because of it's notes in relation to the tonic. I can play you a Lydian mode/tune that's darker than most Phrygian tunes.

 

Always take books as reference, always make music.

 

Also, remember a mode, a scale, a raga is not ALL the notes you want to play, it's SOME of the notes you might want to play, this is where music lies. Carnatic is a good example, many times you have notes at one part of the scale that are skipped or added at other parts of the scale. This because that raga makes MUSIC...not only a scale.

 

This true in a lot of Modal Jazz too, check out Miles or George Benson or Bill Evans...it's the notes they AVOID that give them their great sound just as much as it is the notes they use, sometimes it's the notes they 'hide' due to how much weight they are going to have in THE NEXT chord.

 

In traditional Eastern music the scale is against a single drone (or tonal center), but it still has anticipation, tension and release.

 

I Modern Modal music, or Western Modal music, the music or song will change tonal centers, hence the term, it's polymodal. But it still has anticipation, tension and release.

 

These are all HUGE aspects of Modal Music that transcend the idea of the 7-note scale with the goofy names.

 

The more you learn where the music lies in a scale you'll find that notes that aren't in your scale are just as important as notes that are in the scale, and you'll find that the music lies in a few of the notes of the scale, not necessarily ALL the notes of a scale.

 

So, many times guitarist read SO MUCH about Modes that they never even take the time to LISTEN to Modal based music...it's just like the Blues scale in that once you hear, have the notes to choose from, find some other notes the great 'throw in' you'll be PLAYING Modal music pretty quick, as opposed to reading about it.

 

Test 1...

 

you have 7-notes...find the four best notes for the tune you are playing. Then see how much and when you might want to use the other ones.

 

Test 2...

 

you have 7-notes...find the best sounding four ascending notes for the tune you play, then find the best sounding 4 descending notes for the tune you play. Are they the same set of notes ascending and descending? You can even use notes that are not directly in the scale if you find them.

[johnnymartino]

I cannot agree more, gennation. That's also the reason i recommended Stanley this book, because it has a much greater emphasis on playing than reading.

 

It also provides a logical and technical explanation for why modes might evoke certain emotions. I wish not to doubt that you know a Lydian tune darker than Phrygian, yet there must be something lighter to Lydian than to Phrygian on the whole, if many people and a lot of music points in that direction. I was quite thrilled to read why this might work the way it works.

[Phlat Phive]

I cannot agree more, gennation. That's also the reason i recommended Stanley this book, because it has a much greater emphasis on playing than reading. It also provides a logical and technical explanation for why modes might evoke certain emotions. I wish not to doubt that you know a Lydian tune darker than Phrygian, yet there must be something lighter to Lydian than to Phrygian on the whole, if many people and a lot of music points in that direction. I was quite thrilled to read why this might work the way it works.

 

But wouldn't you say it's possible that the perceived character of the mode is in how it's used, rather than an intrinsic part of the mode itself? Phrasing, note choice, chord voicings, etc. all have a huge impact on the atmosphere that's conveyed.

 

An example: Phrygian sounds "dark" in flamenco music, because the guitarists like to mix it up with phrygian dominant and play those nicely dissonant Maj/b2 chords. But it sounds like that partly because the musicians want it to sound like that, the expectancy of how the mode is "supposed" to sound influences the way it's used and by extension the way it's perceived as well.

 

A more basic example; it is perfectly possible to make a major tonality sound sad, or to make a minor tonality sound cheerful.