Singingax deletes another thread?

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax


Oh, they let you program the "dot" or the "# with a natural note name". Gee, that's great.



It's easier to see that way - 2 guys independantly mentioned that very concept.





So much for getting the joke.


it'd help if your jokes were funny, or witty...or something



Yeah, but what about the concept of autoregressive conditional heteroskedasticity?


Not too up on my sample/regression theory, so bear with me.
What are you sampling?
"Conditional"...some sort of covariance in the sample,yes?
I assume it's in a time series?




For naming the 12 BBB? I'm still looking.

For how I tune my guitar? It doesn't really matter. (when it comes to naming the 12 BBB)


It seemed to matter to you...that's why you brought it up. No one else seemed phased in the least.





Yes, but what about the concept of autoregressive conditional heterodasticity?



You're in your 30s, you know how it goes at work...If you see too much scatter, either
your sampling is bad
or
you are trying to "devine the plan" (PFA numbers) and running into intractible covariance

In either case punt! - you're numbers are dicey (figuratively AND literally)

Sure you can try the crazy math, but wouldn't want to overintellectualize

Monte Carlo rulez!!!!


Still following the CNC tone indoctrination, I see.


Nah - I'm actually comfortable with OZ, chromastaff (OK, I don't really use that much, but I guess I'm comfortable with it) the others I mentioned, but you could only google to OZ...I'd say I'm comfortable with them, but not fluent as they aren't in daily use for me



Naming the 12 BBB doesn't make them chromatic. Using all the 12 BBB in a scale does.


Naming them with equal weight makes it a chromatic system of notation. ie Chroma...full spectrum...


When it comes to naming the 12 BBB, I do understand. (and it sucks for that)


THAT'S EXACTLY why you DON'T understand what traditional nomenclature is doing



When it comes to notation, I couldn't care a less.


naming is a basic form of notation,,,



Back to misinterpreting the 12 BB as tones again, huh?


Nah,you are just misunderstanding the function of traditional systems.


Sorry, the only reason I kepp trying to distinguish the 12 BBB (not tones) is because you couldn't see what a piano shows any moron. The 12 BBB, not tones, but the 12 BBB.


no apologies needed...I think you haven't quite gotten your head around Pitch classes/tone construction yet.




12 half-steps get you 4 BBB? Sorry, your overintellectualization doesn't hold water.


Um, you know the 4 pythagorean concordances...the basis for the system (as in Basic Building Blocks). The
reason temperament exists.
Issacoff refers to these as the BBBs...you really really really should check that stuff out man. I think it'd clear up a lot for you



I'm interested in using 12 distinct designations for the 12 BBB of the half-step equal tempered scale.

That, in and of itself, will improve my understanding of music. I'm not sure if that falls under the definition of "improving my musicianship".


It may have created a barrier to your understanding (why do I say this? simply b/c I've walked that road...you don't think I just magically knew about OZ and such did you?).

But it doesn't matter, as you don't want to improve your musicianship



The fact is there is nothing to "develop" but a 12 distinct designation naming system for the 12 BBB that you can't seem to fathom.


WOW! "There's nothing left to develop" -- are you sure about that?
Of course, you were sure there was nothing to leverage in the good old pre-OZ days (2 months ago)


Hey, I thought I'd give it another go but since you're need to overintellectualize knows no bounds, I'll happily skip them.

You can't actually stick to your own plan

It does remind my of the Old Carlin bit...

anyone driving slower than you is an idiot (Diatonically indoctrinated - anyone using traditional systems)

anyone driving faster than you is a maniac (overintellectualizing - exploring more alternative systems)


Don't forget to turn on the old ignore function like you promised

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Singingax I was tricked into discussing how the CNC names tones instead of the 12 BBB.

 

 

Actually, you're the one who posed the question about the "natural" notes keeping their names in other keys. You raised the issue, not us. Besides, naming the BBB's isn't mutually exclusive from the CNC. We're still talking about naming pitches, regardless of how we do it. If you want to use OZ, go right ahead. Here's the most rational way I've come up with to explain this whole three month debate:

 

We all speak a language. For the sake of this analogy, we'll say that the language is German. Axe finds German to be highly illogical, so he wants to develop his own language. We'll call it Axean. Nobody else speaks Axean. Axe doesn't really care, because he doesn't particularly like talking to Germans (playing with other musicians) or even being in Germany (improving his musicianship). Thus, he speaks Axean. He spends a lot of time telling people who speak German that his system is better. He insults people for liking German. He calls them names. He comments on the supposed size of their genitals. He makes a general nussaince of himself, blissfully unaware that the Germans don't want him any more. Hey, why don't you go to Austria (Open Jam)?

[skatom]

v.nice posts, MorePaul and riffdaddy .

[MorePaul]

[

Originally posted by Singingax


Yes, I did like showing what I see as the inconsistancies in the CNC, do to it's using 7 letters, but it truly isn't a part of the debate except for the fact that it doesn't. (by using 12 distinct designations)


That's the rub. You are seeing them as inconsistancies because you don't really understand the usage



No, instead, lets talk about anything but. Like posting the bad analogy above.

It was a good analogy


Or taking something I've said out of context (like "I'm not interested in improving my musicianship")


Actually, we've used it very much WITHIN context

Of course, you deleted the original thread to cover your tracks, but too many people remember what they read.


or a some joke I've posted and using it instead of debating what you all seem to be so intent on not debating. (since maybe you can't?)


It wasn't so much a joke as an insult. You were in your insulting phase with me again.


It's interesting that you would use the Germans as an analogy. I'm definitely being treated like the Germans treated non-Aryans 50+ years ago.


Most definitely not! Hell, I'm circumcised (am comfortable and familiar with alternative notation systems) and have been welcomed.

If some of my ideas are 'different', I'm not attacked. People post a disagreement or questions, we discuss it...we both come with something.



That SOTGF and the Sabine tuners that show the inadequacies of using the CNC to name the 12 BBB must really inspire you to try and show it as otherwise.


The OSSOTTGF and the sabine pocket tuner!?!

But the higher-end sabine don't use the same system.

now about this point you would have but up a rolleye and said something like "note the sabine thing again. It's because of your indoctrination"...then never actually address the issue


So tell me, why does the Sabine tuner company use 5 dots (or a "natural" note with an accidental) to name 5 of the 12 BBB?


already have! (look above) - 2 different posters

[MorePaul]

Of course, I'm on ignore

No peeking!

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Singingax Hey, in case you haven't noticed, this is a forum, not nazi Germany.

 

 

Are you boys picking on s-ax again? Don't you know he has only the purest of motives? Don't you know that he just wants to be allowed to disagree? Why can't you see that?

 

Is it because:

1) He keeps sinking to invictive?

2) He avoids legitimate issues by restating his point?

3) He wraps himself in his persecution complex?

4) He does not have anything to add to this forum except argument about notation systems?

 

No, it can't be any of those things!

 

The best suggestion I've heard so far is to move this to the Open Forum and let it die under its own weight.

 

(Of course, I'm not helping by reading this thread am I! It's kind of like a car wreck - it's hard to pass it by without looking.)

[qwerty]

> (the O-Z uses a V, which is a roman numeral used in the Nashville system so I'm still looking)

Why are you letting that get in the way of using OZ? On the surface it appears to be a trivial item.

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Singingax Originally posted by arasmith and reinterpreted for accuracy by Singingax Are we indoctrinees picking on s-ax again because we don't like his points which we ...

 

 

Okay, fair enough ax. I got disgusted and did exactly what I was complaining about.

 

Let me ask a simple question, not intended to offend...

 

Are you interested in contributing in any other way to this forum beyond your well-known feelings about the notiation system?

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax


I happen to consider the suggestion that we (guitarists using the half-step equal tempered scale)


It's excellent that you are now trying to distinguish the tuning system to which you refer. I think you mean an ET 12-tone system, tonal systems in general can be considered to be "half-step" but their behaviour vary on the temperament and the number of tones


name the 12 BBB as being a major contribution to those who come to this forum with an open mind.


It DOES, however, require an OPEN mind one must be willing to look back as well as forward. (sans insults, etc)
One very important thing to see is that diatonic notation and chromatic notation do 2 different things.

It's important to realize the information being transmitted by traditional schemes.

I think you are misunderstanding traditional diatonic systems as using 12 BBB. They are noting musical function.

I think the other hurdle is thinking in "12BBB". There is a whole world of construction under this and that thinking in strict "12BBB" terms may not be allowing you to access the foundations of the tonal system.


It's like what Scott Houston the piano guy asks, do you want to be a great note reader or a great piano player. (you can be both)


To be sure, there are entire musical subcultures that are completely oral in tradition.
One thing to note about Houston's system though...it is a "piano for busy people" type course -- that's not a bad thing, it's just what it is and gets people up and running.
Even he readily mentions the limits NOT FOR CLASSICAL PIANO.


One can learn plenty of musical theory without playing musical chairs with the
note names.


You are misunderstanding the use of traditional naming. It seems quite odd that these "names change". Only after a while, do you discover they don't! They are describing musical function.



I'd love to see things being taught here using the Nashville Numerical system or
TAB. Both would let you call the 12 BBB
anything you like.

Tab has a couple of problems in terms of it's use as a musical notation system. It is, essentially, an EXECUTION map.
Two that come readily to mind are
-The same note function has >1 designation ("musical chairs")
-The choice of where to play is taken from the player (remember the Hauser A thing from an earlier thread?)
-musical function isn't directly exposed

Axe - that's why I mentioned "player piano" thinking. It's thinking in mechanical execution terms, not musical function.
I realize now, you took it at insult as opposed to insight

I thought you weren't into TAB...

It's hard to get indoctrinated into a view based on using too much TAB when I hardly use it at all


NNS is fine (actually quite similar for figured bass or just the solfege system) for designating things monolithically (similar to chord charts)..but wasn't intended as fully actualized system (like ain't no fugue happening).

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax In O-Z will do for now, but I'm going to keep looking for something better to designate the 12 BBB.

 

 

Check out the Read sourcebook (if it's still in print, but you should be able to find a copy as it is a pretty major work).

 

That'll give you a huge leg-up.

 

You may also want to give the music Dept of CU Boulder a shout. I know here some decent activity in Denver on alternative notation systems.

 

Systems like various shape notations were in use for a long time

 

 

[arasmith]

Originally posted by Singingax I happen to consider the suggestion that we (guitarists using the half-step equal tempered scale) name the 12 BBB as being a major contribution to those who come to this forum with an open mind. It's like what Scott Houston the piano guy asks, do you want to be a great note reader or a great piano player. (you can be both) One can learn plenty of musical theory without playing musical chairs with the note names. I'd love to see things being taught here using the Nashville Numerical system or TAB. Both would let you call the 12 BBB anything you like.

 

 

So does that mean that you are only interested in participating in discussions that do not use standard notation as a means to communicate?

[qwerty]

>> I'd love to see things being taught here using the Nashville Numerical system or TAB.

No, that's not what he's saying.

Regardless, I do see plenty of tab, and even semi-nashville talk (ie, spelling out the intervals) going on in here. Each tool has its place, and gets used in this forum according to its place, so I'm not sure what the objection is.

Also, and I don't mean to misinterpret past posts, but I thought the concept of "communication" was already discounted in these discussions?

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax It's easy enough to convert the names of some of the BBB that end up playing musical chairs in standard notation into one of the single designations that I'm using, so it's really not that big a problem.

 

 

That is where you are misunderstanding the information carried in traditional diatonic naming.

 

You are still looking at these notes as points of execution, not musical functions.

 

I think the 12 BBB concept is somewhat erroneous in diatonic construction and may be holding you back.

 

12BBB is probably better suited to chromatic music such as "12 tone" music a'la Schoenberg and maybe Straus before him or serialist music or musical mapping a'la Greshack wherein there isn't really diatonic function to the pitch classes.

 

 

For more traditioanl musics there are more basic building blocks and good knowledge of those will, I believe, help you understand the difference.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax Actually, the concept of communicating is paramount to these discussions. It's the "communication" of the 12 BBB! (which the CNC doesn't do very well) Unfortunately, that's what most here have discounted.

I don't think guys have discounted the concept at all. In fact, there seems to be some positive interest in the subject. I think the deal is, however, that you are not understanding the function behind the traditional systems.

The "12BBB" concept is really hanging you up. I believe one problem is you are still not seeing that, say E# and F or Ab and G# have different musical functions.
Guess who this can really help...pianists!

Traditional diatonic naming does a good job. It just sometimes takes peeps a while to discover a richer layer of information being communicated.

It's sort of like watching the South Park movie. At first it's funny, then you realize it's a send-up of Les Mis



I do believe QWERTY has a valid point though...
I communication is, in fact, paramount - then one needs to establish some sort of rapport (even modems have to "hand-shake")
For this to happen there has to be a commonality...that's the CO- in communication.
Otherwise you've just got Esporanto on your hands and little information actually passes from one entity to the other.

To this end, I'd suggest
1) learning WHY traditional diatonic naming is as it is.
2) try not to alienate people
3) realize that, you too, have prejudices...see other's "blindnesses" just as you see your "preferences" and vice versa

[MorePaul]

In an effort to Give Axe his say AND keep thread hijacking down...I transribed the contents of the improve thread here, so that Axe may continue his declarations here instead of the other thread


...Ignoring the thread is cool, but it gives a contained place for him to vent



Axe

Are you sure it's B/E/F#?

It could be Cb/Fb/Gb.

-----------------------

335 Clone

The horse has been dead for quite a while. Why must the beatings continue

-------------------------
Morepaul

shouldn't you be posting in esperanto

---------------------
qwerty


I realize you're just being tongue-in-cheek, Ax, but would you have written those notes in Nashville as bb3 bb6 bb7?

Yes, the horse is an unrecognizable pulp.

-----------------------
Paul J Edwards

Are you guys going to to let Ax hijack another thread? What a bunch of douchbags!

-----------------------
Morepaul

nah; I'm on his ignore list ;-)

but you are right, I guess he's just trying to hijack a thread - so no further comment from this kid


peace - out

I do a pretty good immitation of a douchebag, but I'll need your sister to show you

------------------------

AXE
I assume you're being tongue-in-cheek too.

If not, it's I-IV-V.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by qwerty Yes, the horse is an unrecognizable pulp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hey, when you(me) can see that the emperor wears no clothes, how can you not point it out?

---------------------------------
Originally posted by 335clone

The horse has been dead for quite a while. Why must the beatings continue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Axe

Sorry. There's no dead horse.

But there is a naked emperor, though some (the indoctrinated) think he has some fine threads.

[Greg Cincy]

My personal favorite gems...

"Simplification leads to a greater understanding."

"...construction and notation of tonal systems (and a whole lot of other overintellectualizations)"

"...how I tune my guitar? It doesn't really matter."

"the only reason I kepp trying to distinguish the 12 BBB (not tones) is because you couldn't see what a piano shows any moron."
(see also "Black and white keys")

[riffdaddy]

Originally posted by Greg Cincy My personal favorite gems... "Simplification leads to a greater understanding." "...construction and notation of tonal systems (and a whole lot of other overintellectualizations)" "...how I tune my guitar? It doesn't really matter." "the only reason I kepp trying to distinguish the 12 BBB (not tones) is because you couldn't see what a piano shows any moron." ( see also "Black and white keys")

 

 

Excellent 100th post! Keep on truckin'.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax Gems of wisdom, baby! Especially when seen in context and not pulled out of it like you've done. (you're probably too indoctrinated to handle that) nah, they are context appropriate...which is why you have to delete threads ;-) But, hey, if I used your system I would probably be desperate enough to defend it by doing the same thing. If you actually took the time to UNDERSTAND the system, all would become clear The guy screaming "The emperor has no cloths" is blind and is justifying his stance with "Well, I don't SEE any cloths" (of course, he doesn't see an emperor either...) Now where's that schematic of the guitar's fretboard, with your system shown on it, that shows my above quotes to be true. (even when taken out of context) You aren't really getting what information is being conveyed...you're thinking like a player piano there. 12 hours, 12 months, 12 constellations, and 12 designations ! uh, 24 hours Axe...12 designationgs hmmm (AM/PM??? hmmm 12 designations for 24 hours witha 'modifier'?!?! Gasp!) -- we brought that up in another post, but you delted that Theres a hell of a lot more constellations than 12 12 months of unequal size. 12 basic building blocks of the half-step equal tempered scale, and 7 letters? I think you are talking about a 12 tone ET scale...half-steps are a designation WITHIN a tonal system, not defining it. But it's good that you've started understanding it's not "THE" tempered scale and now you are starting to see there are more than 12 tonalities....important as a guitar player can adjust these 7 Essentials (7 diatonic functions) So what do you call a BBB that can function as many different tones depending on the context it's being used in? It depends on whether it's a "natural" note or not. :rolleyes: Nope, they ALL can...you DO realize there is a P.S. How do you "name" a 9th, 11th and a 13th tone with 7 letters?

Well, the letters are showing pitch class, since the pitch class rolls around, you use the same letters...however you can designate the octave with a digit (similar to 2 letter OZ) or you use functional digits in notation like figured bass...for analysis you can also use roman numerals (I,ii,IV, etc) for analysis if you want relative.


You know, there are even numerical systems like Nashville, that aren't diatonic...no, I guess you wouldn't

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax Yes, an indoctrinated traditionalist likes what another indoctrinee posts. What a surprise. It figures, since you teach that traditionalist BS, puffdaddy.

I don't know I find you pretty traditional, I mean won't really give alternative methods and systems a chance...

I'd say you are WAY indoctrinated.

[vote4dicktaid]

Even I am now amazed that you can't just agree to disagree...

Originally posted by Singingax P.S. How do you "name" a 9th, 11th and a 13th tone with 7 letters?

How is a 13th "named" with 12 letters...?"

Oops...didn't wan't this lame debate to continue, sorry...

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by vote4dicktaid Even I am now amazed that you can't just agree to disagree...

 

 

Don't worry vote -- I'm on his ignore list

 

But sometimes he peeks and he does come around (notice how he's stopped calling it THE tempered scale -- he'll get there, he'll just need to feel he did it on his own)

 

I'd suggest everyone just not read the thread

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax Since I'm talking about using 12 designations for the 12 BBB, (not tones) you use the name for whichever BBB is the 13th. (in context)

 

 

The 13th what? The 13th BBB isn't a 13th.

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax Can't answer my original question, huh? (I understand)

 

 

I don't remember it, sorry.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Singingax It's a legitimate debate. The only thing that's "lame" is your inability to deal with the way your system fails when naming the 12 BBB.

 

 

It's a lame debate, since we're discussing things from two completely different views, that will never be united. What we consider pros are considered cons by you and vice versa. So there really haven't been a proper debate at all...

[MorePaul]

um, already covered the tuner issue not to mention that's the low end tuner...
Now, if we follow out that reasoning, since you support is built upon the entry-level sabine system and the upper level tuners aren't...are we to gather than your views only apply to entry-level music?



we also already discussed the OSSOTTGF issue as well...again, you simply aren't understanding the the proper use of the note names.


you name the 13th scale degree by correlating the pitch class...same as in OZ

simply CHANTING these things and ignoring other evidence is...dogmatic...sounds like you are the victim of this indoctrination of which you accuse others...

you are used to the squirrel after all

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax All tuners show the short-comings of the CNC when it comes to naming the 12 BBB. See above.^ They aren't actually shortcomings, you are simply misunderstanding what information is being presented by a more traditional system. Much like "THE TEMPERED SCALE" you used to use..you are viewing note identity as absolute And, despite your impressive ability to over- intellectualize, you still can't envision the 12 BBB. (or don't want to) I'd say that's untrue...I am comfortable with 12-tone notational systems. Remember who had to show you about OZ? There are other systems as well, but you might actually have to do (GASP!) legwork You are simply misunderstanding that diatonic bothean type systems aren't about 12BBB...they are more fundamental than that Sorry. According to riffdaddy, the tones are the distance between the letters. That works for the first 7 tones but after that you run out of letters. I'd agree with Riff in terms of intervallic distance, but use of "tone" as an identity is a reference to it's pitch class. Again, you are misunderstanding HOW TO USE diatonic bothean type systems...what is being described is pitch class and musical function. So, when describing, say...at 13th scale degree, you fall upon the same pitch class (you know, allows you to vioce the chord as you wish) I, OTOH, name the 13th tone by counting the corresponding half-steps. so you aren't using these "12 BBB" anymore?-- you are naming th 13th tone as "13" Now, in traditional diatonic naming AND OZ, one can also designate which memeber of the pitch class is being used (ie, specifically which pitch) so you can call that out if needed (though you rarely need to do so -- you could use a note's octave designation if you just want to "name" it, in staff notation, it's inherent in the noted position..Or you can use the actual number in a Figured bass...kinda like classical chord charts) And I repeat the SOTGF and Tuner examples because they are prime and irrefutable evidence for the failings of the CNC to name the 12 BBB of the half-step equal tempered scale. You mean 12-tone equal tempered scale. "half steps" are a FUNCTION of scale, not a definition. But more imortantly, I disagree with the statement. The problem is you are viewing the SOTGF as an OSSOTTGF...you, again are simply misusing the system. I think mainly because you've never really used it in full context. As 2 people mentioned independantly before...using diatonic naming on tuners can actually HELP you see more clearly the operation. Your response simply was "I would prefer that they use a naming system that actually names the 12 BBB instead of the wacky CNC that ends up forcing Sabine to use dots to show 5 of the BBB. " You had merely a preference...others have another preference...and it's FOR A REASON (as explained in earlier posts...we don't delete ours) You, of course, would rather view it as dogmatic because your dog (CNC) can't hunt. (name the 12 BBB very well) Just as YOU view others as dogmatic (ie "indoctrinated")...remember I have more than one dog (remember who had to show you systems like OZ when you were trying to develop your own?) puns? nothing cogent to say? you - again - are simply misunderstand the use of the system. For one, that there are 12BBB (when down to brass tacks there are the 4 concordances)...but more importantly, diatonic construction uses 7/8BBB. you still think that the systems map to one another...that's because you are misunderstanding the hows and whys of diatonic naming. Well, as I've pointed out countless times, what tuning you use isn't germane to the debate. (best way to name the 12 BBB) Actually it is...you mention that others are "indoctrinated" and "blind" and seem to consider that germane (establishing state-of-mind). I am simply showing you that, you too, have been indoctrinated...you are viewing diatonic naming incorrectly as merely as system of mechanical execution. You also fail to understand that a modern guitarist can and does actively intonate their instrument. I don't know about any squirrel, but I'm starting to get use to the fact that you are a bit nutty. As you mentioned (then deleted), there are systems which simply adhere to because it is what you have become accustomed to. Yet you lambaste others for their accustomed preferences. Do you suffer from OCD MorePaul? Judging from how often you post, I'd say so. just trying to keep the record straight. By the same tolken, would that mean you have ADD? you can't seem to stick to your "I'm ignoring him" plan Still peeking!

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by Singingax The 13th tone . The question was; how can you name a 9th, and an 11th, and a 13th tone using a seven letter system?

It's simple. The 2nd and 9th share names and so on.

Originally posted by Singingax Since it's your system that's being shown to be "lame" at naming the 12 BBB, I'm not suprised you label the debate lame instead.

Don't you think it's lame to keep a debate going for +3 months when we don't even agree what we're debating? I'm not trying to win this completely dead-locked argument here, unlike yourself, apparently. You've shown many times that you have absolutely no intention to even try to understand the current system, yet you have no problem bashing it (bashing it for things outside of its use). That was sort of fun in the beginning, but not anymore.

Originally posted by Singingax A schematic of the guitar's fretboard and a Sabine tuner, with your system on it, shows what's truly lame!

That's what I'm talking about...