? for Poparad

[Markf]

Whats happening in this progression I-IV-V, if I make all the

chords Dom chords? Am I changing keys each time I change

chords? Say in Gmajor for instance? This would be G13, C9,

D9 and G13 now is this a typical blues progression? Or am I

just giving a mixolydian feel to the tonality? Then later I can

throw in some substitutions, like iiminor for IV, and the flat V

with any of its alterations for the V? Kind of starts to sound

jazzy.

[thliu]

If the I-IV-V progression uses all dominants like G7-C7-D7, then you are changing keys every chord.

 

C major to F major to G major.

 

Another way to look at it is:

 

G mixolydian to G dorian to G major.

 

Notice the movement from major to minor back to major.

[edeltorus]

> G mixolydian to G dorian to G major.

 

That's exactly the harmony I base my blues leads on..

[thliu]

 

Originally posted by edeltorus That's exactly the harmony I base my blues leads on..

 

 

Nice. That's definitely a jazz oriented way of playing. Most blues would stick with G major or minor pentatonic. Hey, sometimes that's what sounds best.

[dongenaro]

Thanks, thliu. I've been watching this thread. As I've said before

I'm just beginning to study jazz theory. Are there any more

scales you would suggest for a progression like this?

[thliu]

 

Originally posted by dongenaro Thanks, thliu. I've been watching this thread. As I've said before I'm just beginning to study jazz theory. Are there any more scales you would suggest for a progression like this?

 

 

You should learn a major jazz blues progression. It opens up the options. Maybe I'll go into it in detail later, but very quickly:

 

Regular blues progression in Bb is:

 

 

 

Some things to notice that will spice up the blues:

1. The IV comes in during the 2nd bar, not 5th. So you can change to a minor sound quicker.

2. In the 4th bar, you have a ii-V that resolve to the IV.

3. In the 6th bar, you have a diminished chord.

4. In the 7th to 10th bars, you have a standard I-VI-ii-V progression.

5. The turnaround is a I-VI-ii-V progression.

[Markf]

Thanks thliu,

 

thats how I was thinking of it, but I have a hard time with

tonal centers as opposed to keys. Thats 3 flavors of G:

G mixolydian, G dorian, and G ionian. All from different parent

scales but the tonic is still G.

This blues style is kind of considered an anomaly in common

practice theory right? where did this style come from?

[thliu]

 

Originally posted by Markf Thanks thliu, thats how I was thinking of it, but I have a hard time with tonal centers as opposed to keys. Thats 3 flavors of G: G mixolydian, G dorian, and G ionian. All from different parent scales but the tonic is still G. This blues style is kind of considered an anomaly in common practice theory right? where did this style come from?

 

 

That's what jazz guys have always been doing. Check out Sonny Rollins' Tenor Madness. It's a blues he did with Coltrane.

[edeltorus]

 

Originally posted by Markf This blues style is kind of considered an anomaly in common practice theory right? where did this style come from?

 

 

Look here.. short but good history of the blues:

 

http://www.iconscious.co.uk/musichistory/blues.htm

[Markf]

O.K. guys, I'll check out both of your suggestions. thanks for

the link! Thliu are you a guitar player mainly or do you play

other instruments as well?

[thliu]

 

Originally posted by Markf O.K. guys, I'll check out both of your suggestions. thanks for the link! Thliu are you a guitar player mainly or do you play other instruments as well?

 

 

Just guitar.

[Markf]

Thliu,

I've only studied diatonic theory, and it talks of major/minor

tonality etc., but it seems to me they over-emphasize major

and relative minor ! Now parallel minor/major seems to be

more expansive: C major: C D E F G A B C

C minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

 

 

 

thats : C D Eb E F G Ab A Bb B

 

theres ten notes of the chromatic scale! The only 2 missing

are Db and Gb. Now with the Neapolitan 6th chord and the

Augmented 6th you get all 12 tones. Thats all the colors of

the rainbow man!!

 

where did this concept of parallel minor/major come into the

teaching? Sure C majors' relative minor is A minor, so what?

the other modes D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, etc. etc. are

relatives of C major also! But your still going around in a

circle of only C major. Only when the rest of the notes are

facilitated do things start getting more interesting and colorful.

[bassmantele]

 

Originally posted by thliu If the I-IV-V progression uses all dominants like G7-C7-D7, then you are changing keys every chord. .

 

 

Where in the world did you get that idea? Did someone tell you that the dominant seventh chord defines the key?

 

In standard American pop music, a dominant seventh chord does define the key. But.... this is the blues, and the blues is not standard American pop music. It's African-American, and it breaks the general rules of Western popular harmony. A G7 - C7 - D7 blues progression is a blues in G, not C. Don't overcomplicate things with modal crap, it just confuses people who don't know any better. The idea that the blues goes through three key changes in three chords is just nutty. No doubt you mean well, but even in the world of internet guitar nuttiness that one takes the cake.

 

The blues: 1 - 4 - 5. Very simple.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Markf Thliu, I've only studied diatonic theory, and it talks of major/minor tonality etc., but it seems to me they over-emphasize major and relative minor ! Now parallel minor/major seems to be more expansive: C major: C D E F G A B C C minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C thats : C D Eb E F G Ab A Bb B theres ten notes of the chromatic scale! The only 2 missing are Db and Gb. Now with the Neapolitan 6th chord and the Augmented 6th you get all 12 tones. Thats all the colors of the rainbow man!! where did this concept of parallel minor/major come into the teaching? Sure C majors' relative minor is A minor, so what? the other modes D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, etc. etc. are relatives of C major also! But your still going around in a circle of only C major. Only when the rest of the notes are facilitated do things start getting more interesting and colorful.

 

Heh... by the time I got this this thread most of the questions were well answered. Good job HC forumites!

 

 

 

As for the parallel thing you mention here, you are onto a very important aspect of how modes work.

 

I don't know how well you know modes, but in case it's something new to you, try to approach modes in the parallel way the same way you described Cmajor to Cminor, i.e. both starting on C.

 

It sounds like you know that modes are all derived from the major scale, but when you actually use them in improvisation, it's easier to think of them each as individual scales. Practicing them all from the same root will help you get the hang of them since it contrasts the differences in notes between each mode while retaining the same root.

 

I like to group them into three groups: Major, Minor, and diminished. The major include Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian; minor includes dorian, phrygian, and aeolian; and diminished has locrian.

 

 

 

BUT,

 

In the blues, I don't find myself using modes much. Well, kind of, but not really. The simple approach to blues changes that you first stated was using the I7, IV7, and V7 chords. I like to think of this rather than key changes, but as one sound that's just moved to a new root. The V7 chord in the blues is a chord you can sit on rather than resolve like is done in just about every other style of music.

 

So, starting out with a very simple blues using only those three chords, you can get used to scales that are commonly used in jazz over the V7 chord.

 

Here are what I find myself using the most:

 

The blues scale: 1 b3 4 #4 5 b7

Lydian Dominant: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

 

Mixolydian works well, and I often toggle between that and lydian dominant since there's only 1 note difference.

 

On the more tense chords that you want to go somewhere, you can play the altered scale: 1 b2 b3 3 #4 #5 b7. Another way of looking at the altered scale is a melodic minor scale played a half step above the root of the chord. Over C7 that would be Dbmelodic minor (use only the 'ascending' form from classical theory in the jazz idiom)

 

Some of the points that would merit employing the tension caused by the altered scale would be over the V7 chord in the last 4 bars, or over the I7 in the 4th and/or 8th measures. In case I didn't specify, I'm referring to this form of the blues:

 

| I7 | I7 | I7 | I7 |

| IV7 | IV7| I7 | I7 |

| V7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 |

 

 

 

 

Now, when you feel like getting a little more adventurous into a more jazz sounding blues, you can throw in these changes:

 

| I7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 |

| IV7 | IV7 | I7 | VI7|

| ii7 | V7 | I7 | I7 |

 

The IV7 in the second bar is common even in non-jazz settings.

The VI7, ii7, V7, in the 8th-10th bars is more of a jazz sound and the first big change to get in your ears. Treat the VI7 just like any other dominant chord, then the ii7 V7 can be played in the key of the I, i.e. if the ii7 V7 was Dm7 G7, then you can play Cmajor over it. C major isn't the most interesting thing, but it's a place to start. The more interesting choice would be to use the altered scale on the V7, which is the most appropriate place to do so out of the whole 12 bars.

 

 

Then, to add some more changes, you can add a turnaround at the end. A turnaround 99% of the time is a I VI ii V and takes up 2 bars (just like the changes above for measures 8-10, except the harmonic rhythm is twice as fast)

 

| I7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 |

| IV7 | IV7 | I7 | VI7 |

| ii7 | V7 | I7 VI7 | ii7 V7 |

 

The last major change to make this blues progression into a standard jazz blues progression, is a change to the 6th bar of the form. The IV7 chord is often replaced with a #VIdim7. In C blues, that would be F#dim7. Over that you can play the F#diminished scale (a repeating pattern of whole step, half step, whole step, half step, etc starting on F#)

 

| I7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 |

| IV7 | #IVdim7 | I7 | VI7 |

| ii7 | V7 | I7 VI7 | ii7 V7 |

 

 

One thing to note about that change though. If you spell out the IV7 in C, it's F7, spelled F A C Eb. Now, let's make that an F9 chord, which is just adding the next third above the chord: F A C Eb G. I common tension added to a dominant seventh chord is the b9, which comes from the V7 in minor as your classical theory will tell you. F7b9 is spelled F A C Eb Gb. Now, if you take away the root, F, you get: A C Eb Gb. Now, respelling the Gb as an F# and putting it on the bottom, you get: F# A C Eb, or F#dim7. My whole point is that while the dim7 we just added to the blues changes may seem like a new chord, it's really just a one note difference to the chord before.

 

| IV 7 | IV7b9 | is essentially the same as | IV7 | #IVdim7 |

 

Just something to think about.

 

 

 

As for the 4th bar of the tune, I noticed that someone else posted this alternative:

 

| I7 | IV7 | I7 | v7 I7 | (the last bar there is just a ii7 V7 of the IV chord)

 

While that's common, I tend to just think of it as an altered V7 (of IV) chord. The whole point of changing that bar is to add more movement into the 5th bar of the form, where it moves to the IV7 chord. I usually just play the 4th bar as an altered chord and that does the same trick.

 

For the most part, the ii7 and the V7 are pretty much the same sound since they have so many common notes (all but 1), so you can think of it as one sound to solo over. That's why if you're jamming with someone and they play a ii V in that 4th bar but you play just an V while improvising, it'll work perfectly.

 

 

 

 

I know that's a lot to digest, but I guess it's better to be thorough and not miss any important points.

[crowekd]

Very little add to that excellent discussion except that I've seen the

 

I IV I I IV etc.

 

i.e. the change to the IV right away in the second measure, referred to as a "fast change" blues. Conversely, the I I I I IV etc. is referred to as a "slow change" blues. If you are jamming and somebody shouts out a fast change blues in Bb...you'll know what they mean.

 

Doug

[thliu]

 

Originally posted by bassmantele Where in the world did you get that idea? Did someone tell you that the dominant seventh chord defines the key? In standard American pop music, a dominant seventh chord does define the key. But.... this is the blues, and the blues is not standard American pop music. It's African-American, and it breaks the general rules of Western popular harmony. A G7 - C7 - D7 blues progression is a blues in G, not C. Don't overcomplicate things with modal crap, it just confuses people who don't know any better. The idea that the blues goes through three key changes in three chords is just nutty. No doubt you mean well, but even in the world of internet guitar nuttiness that one takes the cake. The blues: 1 - 4 - 5. Very simple.

 

 

You missed two points I made:

 

1. I stated, "Most blues would stick with G major or minor pentatonic. Hey, sometimes that's what sounds best." So I agree, in blues, you don't change keys every chord and that can sound good.

 

2. I also put everything in the context of a jazz blues. Not a standard blues. In jazz blues, the progression is indeed modal. Notice that I referenced Tenor Madness by Sonny Rollins, not Texas Flood by Stevie Ray Vaughan.

 

Also, i didn't mean to say that there are 3 key changes in 3 chords. There are 3 modes, sure, but it's all in reference to the main key.

 

Also, the "major to minor to major" concept is in standard blues as well. The note between a major 3rd and minor 3rd is considered the "blue note" because the blues is ambiguous between major and minor. Changing from major to minor to major accentuates that.

 

I may agree that this may confuse some beginners, but it is not guitar internet nuttiness.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by crowekd Very little add to that excellent discussion except that I've seen the I IV I I IV etc. i.e. the change to the IV right away in the second measure, referred to as a "fast change" blues. Conversely, the I I I I IV etc. is referred to as a "slow change" blues. If you are jamming and somebody shouts out a fast change blues in Bb...you'll know what they mean. Doug

 

I've never heard it called that, since most of my experience is with jazz and it's 99% of the time played with the extra IV chord. Thanks for the heads up though; next time I'm at a blues gig if I hear that I'll know what to do!

[skatom]

All that's been said so far has been great. Just one little thing, when changing to chord IV in the 5th measure, I find it a little more useful to think of IV mixolydian rather than I dorian - so in an F blues, for the IV chord in measures 5 and 6, think Bb7(Bb mix) rather than F dor, as thinking Bb mix helps me to emphasise the chord tones a bit more strongly, and even though the two scales have the same notes, simply thinking the different mode helps me to plan my resolution in a more vertical, harmonically-rich manner that emphasises a modulation from Bb7 to F7, rather than a modal change from Fdor to Fmix, if you get what I mean?

 

(Wow, that's a long sentence.)

 

Anyway, when I was just starting out with jazz (not too recently) I found that just simply thinking key modulation rather than "oh, i'm going to play the F dorian shape that I memorised" helped me to come up with more interesting lines that resolved more strongly.

 

Good luck,

 

tommy

[Poparad]

 

Originally posted by skatom All that's been said so far has been great. Just one little thing, when changing to chord IV in the 5th measure, I find it a little more useful to think of IV mixolydian rather than I dorian - so in an F blues, for the IV chord in measures 5 and 6, think Bb7(Bb mix) rather than F dor, as thinking Bb mix helps me to emphasise the chord tones a bit more strongly, and even though the two scales have the same notes, simply thinking the different mode helps me to plan my resolution in a more vertical, harmonically-rich manner that emphasises a modulation from Bb7 to F7, rather than a modal change from Fdor to Fmix, if you get what I mean? (Wow, that's a long sentence.) Anyway, when I was just starting out with jazz (not too recently) I found that just simply thinking key modulation rather than "oh, i'm going to play the F dorian shape that I memorised" helped me to come up with more interesting lines that resolved more strongly. Good luck, tommy

 

 

+1

 

 

Couldn't agree more. Thinking of the chords as based around their root will help you follow the harmony so much easier. The advantage in the blues is that it suddenly becomes 1 sound, one scale pattern, one chord type, one arpeggio shape, etc, that is just moved around to different roots.

[skatom]

(whoa, how'd that double post get here!)

[Markf]

Cool ! Hey Thliu, I liked your answer, its true that common

practice theory does make it seem like a Dom7 chord defines

the key, hence my question. your answer shows a nice and

different way of conceptualizing it. In a distinct idiom like the

blues, thinking needs to be modified a little.

 

 

Poparad, thanks for the essay on the blues, I have much to

learn. Especially the structure of the rhythm, because if you

change at the wrong place you blow it.

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

[crazedmetalhead]

dominant 7th chords sound as though they need to resolve to the I chord....so if your playing C7...F7.....G7 it sounds as though you switch keys three times..C7 goes to F...F7 goes to Bb and G7 goes to C..now dig this...which is a real cute way to figure out what scale you should play when a certain chord comes around. take each of the modes and do this: take every other note of that scale and it will define the chord it should be played over, for example: the mixolydian scale 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (take out every other note) 1 3 5 b7=spells the dominant seven chord which means mixolydian should be played over the dominant (V CHORD).....the dorian scale 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (take out every other note) 1 b3 5 b7 and this spells the minor 7th chord.....you can do this with every mode and i promise it will sound right every time..one more example locrian is spelled 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7(take out every other scale degree) 1 b3 b5 b7, which spells the half diminished chord..easy breezy:cool: