? for Poparad or riffdaddy

[Markf]

Can either of you guys explain the uses of Harmonic Minor to me?

When I harmonize the scale, the chords don't sound that great.

Same with Melodic Minor. So are these scales and their modes

(since they are merely alterations of the Natural Minor) just a

tool that we use to borrow slightly coloured chords from? In other

words, we could put a chord progression together from the

natural minor scale, but then use the other minors to vary the

sound? I don't mean to over-simplify it, but basically thats the

idea?

[thliu]

The harmonic minors was created so that the V would be a dominant.

The natural minor scale's V is minor so it doesn't create the same tension that a dominant chord creates.

We want the V to be dominant so that it resolves to the tonic nicely.

So, in jazz, most minor 2-5s are harmonized on the harmonic scale.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Markf In other words, we could put a chord progression together from the natural minor scale, but then use the other minors to vary the sound? I don't mean to over-simplify it, but basically thats the idea?

 

 

Kind of, yeah. You have the right idea. There are a lot of different uses for the harmonic and melodic minor scales when you approach them from a standpoint of jazz harmony. In classical harmony, the applications are a lot more limited, since the harmony isn't so adventurous. As an improvisor though, the jazz approach can be of use.

 

For harmonized scales, you're right, they do sound kind of weird. There are a few ways of using these scales that are common.

 

Harmonic minor:

 

The simplest use of the harmonic minor is over a minor chord. For example, playing A harmonic minor over an Aminor chord. The added leading tone is a nice sound but not to be abused as it gets overdone quite easily.

 

The second most common way of using harmonic minor is for the V chord. For example, using A harmonic minor over an E7(b9) chord. The E7 is the V of Am, so using the harmonic minor from that key would make sense. This mode is often called "phrygian dominant" or "phrygian major" as it's very similar to the phrygian mode, except that the third is major (G# in the case of E phrygian dominant).

 

Now keep in mind, the progression doesn't have to be E7 to Am to use this scale. You can use it on E7 to Amajor if you want. This application creates a lot of tension on the V7 chord, so you'll still want to use it somewhere that the chord resolves to it's I.

 

 

The other use of harmonic minor is over the m7b5 chord. This kind of goes hand in hand with the dominant chord approach, as in the harmonic minor scale, the ii chord is m7b5, the first half of a ii V i, which is a very common progression. For all intents an purposes, the ii and the V are very similar in sound and often treated as the same kind of sound, so rather than thinking "ok, now i'm playing over the ii chord, now i'm playing over the V chord" you can just think "now i'm playing over a ii V" and treat it as one sound.

 

 

 

 

Melodic minor has a number of good uses as well. The melodic minor we use in improvisation is the ascending form only of the classical version of the melodic minor.

 

Simple use #1: A melodic minor over an Aminor chord. Just like the harmonic minor example before.

 

 

Use #2: The IV chord in mel min is a dominant chord. This mode is called "lydian dominant" because it's like lydian but with a b7. This is good for the blues, and other times you have a V7 chord that doesn't go to a I. It's a nice, low tension scale. Another way of looking at it, is it's exaclty like mixolydian but with a #4.

 

 

Use #3: Altered Scale. G#7 for A melodic minor. This has all those tasty alterations you can get on a dominant chord. Use only when you want a lot of tension and the chord is going to a I.

 

 

 

 

 

All the modes of both scales in theory have uses. Some of the ones I didn't mention are used somewhat commonly as well, but these are the big ones to check out.

 

 

Keep in mind, you don't need to be in a minor key to use any of these modes. Any time you come across one of the chords that one of these modes applies to, you can use the scale.

[Markf]

muchas gracias amigos,

thats clear, and concise and not overwhelming. I lurk here a lot
and thats how I learned to ask specific posters for answers on
things. Poparad, you come across very sincere on this forum
as do thliu, and riffdaddy. Awhile back I use to post here, but I
found some of the forum members here to be condescending so
I stopped asking and hired an instructor to help me learn how
to play in an impromptu setting. Thats why I'm learning these
minor scales. But I usually practice alone, and I find myself
comping the correct chord voicings more often than learning the
modes. Another area I need help in is function analysis. I can't
look at charts and quickly see whats doing what, i.e. secondary
dominants, modulations etc. etc..... its like one of those things
where only experience can teach you.


cheers

[Joe Merlino]

Hey Mark -

I don't know what the scene is like in your area, but nothing will teach you this stuff faster than going to a few jazz jams. It's very much the "in at the deep end" experience in that you'll start learning the stuff just to keep from falling on your face in front of people.