Members Deek Posted December 12, 2003 Members Posted December 12, 2003 I have a hard to doing vibrato on the high E string on my guitar. Whenever i do it, the string goes off the fretboard. Can you give me some help with this?
Members Auggie Doggie Posted December 12, 2003 Members Posted December 12, 2003 Push it towards the center of the neck...don't pull it down.Actually, I give the same advice for everything but the low E, but nobody believes me!
Members Little Pete Posted December 12, 2003 Members Posted December 12, 2003 I think for the high E you will need to have a more classical technique rather than blues.I have exactly the same problem a lot of the time too so don't worry. Bluesy vibrato tends to be with a wrist rotation type motion (BB king) which is great and expressive but the string moves up and down a lot (hence why the E slips off the 'board a lot). Classical vibrato is side to side (the finger stays on the fretboard and you sort of 'shiver' it back and forth along the neck rather than across the board) to get the sound.
Members 1boogieman Posted December 12, 2003 Members Posted December 12, 2003 You might try approaching the note from one fret below, bend it up to the note you want and then with the hand in the shape of a "C" use the base of your finger against the neck and move your wrist and hand to get vibrato. This gives you room to wiggle without falling off the neck!
Members d0zerz Posted December 12, 2003 Members Posted December 12, 2003 wait a sec? you can do vibratos by doing a quick bend/release pulse? oh man...I thought that was cheating or something. On the 9+ frets I can get a reasonable vibrato sound by moving paralell to the neck...but on lower frets that's hard...so..maybe I should try bend-release on those frets
Members Auggie Doggie Posted December 12, 2003 Members Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by d0zerz wait a sec? you can do vibratos by doing a quick bend/release pulse? oh man...I thought that was cheating or something. On the 9+ frets I can get a reasonable vibrato sound by moving paralell to the neck...but on lower frets that's hard...so..maybe I should try bend-release on those frets Let's forget about the physical motions involved for a moment, and think only in terms of pitch. A vibrato is merely a pitch being 'bent' and 'unbent' repeatedly. Whatever mechanics you use to achieve that effect aren't 'relevant'...as long as the pitch gets shaped ('bent') in the desired way. It's a function of string tension.So, it's not cheating to do a bend-release-repeat technique to create vibrato...it's just that, as guitarists, we normally use the word 'bend' to mean a note that gets pulled up to another note (ie C bent up to D, or G# bent up to A, etc). But, if you just bend a small fraction of the way to another note, release, bend again, release, etc., you're doing a vibrato as you 'bend' the string. It's a little quirk of our guitar-specific language that confuses the matter a bit.
Members TheBayesMaster Posted December 13, 2003 Members Posted December 13, 2003 I find adding vibrato to a bend is possibly the hardest thing to do at the moment, are there any tips to help this? All the solo's I play sound quite flat and boring because I can't do this, it would be quite an achievement for me to be able to do it
Members Auggie Doggie Posted December 13, 2003 Members Posted December 13, 2003 Originally posted by TheBayesMaster I find adding vibrato to a bend is possibly the hardest thing to do at the moment, are there any tips to help this? All the solo's I play sound quite flat and boring because I can't do this, it would be quite an achievement for me to be able to do it I'll try to cover this with a hypothetical example:You are fretting the B string, 15th fret D, up a whole step to E, and you want to add vibrato to it.Now, let's think of that bend in terms of being 'perfect'....in other words, you bend EXACTLY to the E (not sharp or flat at all). Let's call that bend "100%". To vibrato that note, you want to bend up to 120%....and release some of that bending strength until the pitch falls to 80%.....back up to 120....partial release again to 80....etc.(the numbers are arbitrary)The idea is that you want the 'true' pitch (100%) to be in the center of the pitch range of the vibrato (80-120). So, you have to OVERBEND a little....and then simply EASE UP on some of that force.It may sound strange, but once you get the string-tension feedback down (ie, you let the string's natural resistance to your bending lower the pitch....do NOT try and 'relocate' how far your fingers are bending the note, if that makes sense), it gets a LOT easier. Remember, that string wants to be in a straight line, and its tendency to do so can be turned and used to your advantage.It's sort of like guitar jujitsu.
Members Little Dreamer Posted December 14, 2003 Members Posted December 14, 2003 When putting vibrato on a bend, it's much easier if you use two fingers to bend the string. For instance, if you are fretting the note with your ring finger, have your middle finger on the same string, one fret below. That way, the tension of bending the string is distributed over two fingers, meaning each finger has only half as much tension, and this makes it much easier to vibrato the note up and down. As far as vibrato on the high E, there's really no special technique, you just have to learn to vibrato the note without pulling it down so far as to get it off the fretboard. Keep practicing is about the only advice I can give there.
Members butch Posted December 14, 2003 Members Posted December 14, 2003 I apologize for sounding like the guitar police again this just isn't going to work.When vibratoing a bent note you realease to below the note then bend back up to the original 100%"bent pitch.You could bend vibrato above "AFTER" you've reached the 100% to 120% or beyond then release to 100% pitch.. thats a different sound.I do that more with the whammy bar.The important thing is the bend to 100% which equals ..in tune...then vibrato ..up or down ..down being the easiest and most common for finger vibrato. Think about it... if the note you are bending to is %100 away from the original (in tune)why would you bend to 120% ....you're out of tune. ... thats not vibrato...thats bad playing.... Using AD's terminology ..bend 100% then realease to 80% bend back up to 100% more than one release return bend sounds like a vibrato...the rythm of the release is paramount . In general if you want a fast vibrato release wider (maybe to 60%) slower vibrato= less release.Thats true of any vibrato. fast vibrato=wide 'bend' slow vibrato= shallow" bend" as far as the 1st string I'd only go up.Realease to the original "un vibrato position.it's a physical thang. This is one of the most expressive and identifying mechanics on the guitar and can't be easily explained in a post. Proceed with caution and big ears.. Butch
Members Auggie Doggie Posted December 14, 2003 Members Posted December 14, 2003 Originally posted by butch Think about it... if the note you are bending to is %100 away from the original (in tune)why would you bend to 120% ....you're out of tune. ... thats not vibrato...thats bad playing.... Vibrato, by its definition, is making a note go out of tune! As for 'bad playing', you either complete misunderstood my post or know nothing of vibrato. The point I was making as I chose those numbers was that the AVERAGE PITCH of a vibrato should be the IN-TUNE pitch!!!!! You're suggesting that a bend max out at 'pitch' and never go above that for a vibrato. That means your average pitch will always be FLAT, and thus out of tune, bad playing.
Members butch Posted December 15, 2003 Members Posted December 15, 2003 I apologize if I mis-understood your explanation but I don't think I did.I read it as ...when "bending" to a note "then vibratoing THAT pitch go beyond the "100% in tune to the out of tune 120% then below 80% and center the pitch..that ain't gonna work.I do that on slide for a "wild vibrato but ...... You have now bent to an out of tune note.One of the subtleties to a vibrato is you don't vibrato right away.It will sound like you're out of tune.Establish the pitch (no matter it's rythm duration value) then vibato ...centering the pitch.Of course for an effect it could be Out but I don't think thats what you mean. And yes I know a lot about vibrato.Listen to my playing right click save as target lo fi hi fi or download http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=708242&q=Lo http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=708242&q=Hi http://www.soundclick.com/util/DownloadSong.cfm?ID=708242 if soundclicks down http://www.songramp.com/view.ez?sampleid=10172 I've been playing with vibrato for years.,I've taught many folks this for years and it works....guarenteed!! I completely understand vibrato is bending out of tune and centering but you don't go above then below the pitch.It's either or centered. I've been wrong before.Throw up a post and show me what you are talking about. Butch
Members Melvin J. Posted December 21, 2003 Members Posted December 21, 2003 This is quite the subjective thread we have going on here. Many people say that you are supposed to apply vibrato as soon as possible, and others say to allow the note to sustain and then apply. I believe both work, it just depends on the song or emphasis that you want on that specific note. Now, I believe that vibrato's pitch should go both up and down from the target note (100%-120%-80%) most of the time. Which way you start (below or above the target) is another issue entirely. These are the things that make vibrato unique aren't they. I have been playing eight years so I have plenty to learn and am not an expert, but every note you play requires a slightly different vibrato. There is not a do it all vibrato style, you have to learn as many ways as possible and use what you know in the moment of truth.
Members butch Posted December 21, 2003 Members Posted December 21, 2003 Melvin , Of course it is subjective and in relationship to the music.I've studied and listened to a lot of players who use vibrato as a main expressive of notes and used that as aguideline.BB may get to his sting sooner and play it faster but he still on the whole lets an Intune note breath.Listen to good vocalist.They...wait As far as the 80-100-120 the only thing I would retract is the 80% is a fallacy unless you are using a whammy bar or slide (or fast slides over the fret alla Warren Di Martini or George Lynch) you can't bend a pitch lower. vibrato is one of the hardest techiniques and most expressive treatment of the notes and can't be explained so easily.But I believe the basic principles are very consistent . Listen to the masters BB Albert Collins Freddy King Buddy Guy Eric Clapton Jeff Beck Jimi Jimmy Page Ritchy Blackmore Peter Green Mike Bloomfield Alvin Lee Roy Buchanan Michael Shencker David Gilmore SRV Don Felder EVH Yngwie Satch Steve Vai Angus Young Billy Gibbons Steve Lukather Robin Trower Neal Schon Mick Ralphs(Bad Company) Paul Kosoff(Free) There's more .....the almost all have very "singing " vibratos.The blues guys are more nervous and stingy .The newer guys are wider and Violiny with more sustain.I'd listen for the common elements and play the inside of the notes. It's a life long endevour to make the notes live and breathe not a mechanical excursion ..but it starts there...just IMO Butch
Members Melvin J. Posted December 21, 2003 Members Posted December 21, 2003 Yeah, I think that a good vocalist does wait a moment to apply their vibrato, but the weird thing is is that my choir director has us apply vibrato ASAP, I think he is going for a full blend of voices. Since it is an ensemble instead of just a main melodic voice, applying vibrato sooner may lead to better blending for the group, what do you think, I don't know I just listen to his instruction and do it. Now, as far as bending a string flat, true you cannot bend it flat, is that an oxymoron, but what you can do is the classical side to side vibrato where you actually pull the string towards the nut (sharp) and then push the string from the nut to the bridge which effectively makes the pitch flat by as much as 17 cents or so, which is quite a bit. Try this at the 9th position or higher and you can really flatten a note out as well as make it sharp. I find this technique compelling. Since we use equal temperament, being able to flatten a pitch as well as make it sharp is paramount for precise pitch accuracy since the fifth and octave are the only nearly perfect intervals, well the others aren't too bad but... Well, sorry for the length but this is a deep topic that we can hopefully dig into later.
Members bobthemerciful Posted April 26, 2004 Members Posted April 26, 2004 Couldn't do it at all when I was 16. Decided I'd never be able to, then one day about three months later it just happened. Mental block I suppose. ( and no teacher, no brains, sh*t guitar....)
Members 1boogieman Posted April 27, 2004 Members Posted April 27, 2004 Get a Strat and use the wiggle-stick - there.
Members ranalli Posted May 11, 2004 Members Posted May 11, 2004 Originally posted by butch I apologize if I mis-understood your explanation but I don't think I did.I read it as ...when "bending" to a note "then vibratoing THAT pitch go beyond the "100% in tune to the out of tune 120% then below 80% and center the pitch..that ain't gonna work.I do that on slide for a "wild vibrato but ......You have now bent to an out of tune note.One of the subtleties to a vibrato is you don't vibrato right away.It will sound like you're out of tune.Establish the pitch (no matter it's rythm duration value) then vibato ...centering the pitch.Of course for an effect it could be Out but I don't think thats what you mean.And yes I know a lot about vibrato.Listen to my playing right click save as target lo fi hi fi or downloadhttp://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=708242&q=Lohttp://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=708242&q=Hihttp://www.soundclick.com/util/DownloadSong.cfm?ID=708242if soundclicks downhttp://www.songramp.com/view.ez?sampleid=10172I've been playing with vibrato for years.,I've taught many folks this for years and it works....guarenteed!!I completely understand vibrato is bending out of tune and centering but you don't go above then below the pitch.It's either or centered.I've been wrong before.Throw up a post and show me what you are talking about.Butch That descending lick you do right after the soft stuff at the beginning of "Jerk of the Strings" is just AWESOME!!! Sounds like some kind of minor pentatonic/blues lick....fantastic....great tone for that too.
Members gogo Posted May 11, 2004 Members Posted May 11, 2004 I know you've been discussing bending up then adding vibrato, but fwiw: On a normal guitar note (one you merely fretted, & didn't bend up to,) the note starts in tune, then you vibrato it sharp & release it back in tune. I don't think you can vibrato below pitch on a normally fretted note. (Unless you squeeze so hard as to bend the whole neck?) Interesting because on sax, it's easy to bend a note flat but difficult to bend it much sharp (because as the mouth gets tighter on the mouthpiece it chokes off the reed) so sax vibrato is mostly going flat then back in tune. And to "bend up" to a note, you finger the upper note, start flat & slide into tune. This is all reverse of guitar.
Members ranalli Posted May 11, 2004 Members Posted May 11, 2004 Originally posted by gogo I know you've been discussing bending up then adding vibrato, but fwiw:On a normal guitar note (one you merely fretted, & didn't bend up to,) the note starts in tune, then you vibrato it sharp & release it back in tune. I don't think you can vibrato below pitch on a normally fretted note. (Unless you squeeze so hard as to bend the whole neck?)Interesting because on sax, it's easy to bend a note flat but difficult to bend it much sharp (because as the mouth gets tighter on the mouthpiece it chokes off the reed) so sax vibrato is mostly going flat then back in tune. And to "bend up" to a note, you finger the upper note, start flat & slide into tune. This is all reverse of guitar. Another sax player ehh?? I used to have a wicked vibrato on sax.....but not on guitar....lol...
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