making a lead part over a chord progression

[rx7speed]

ok I'm trying to figure out how to write a lead part over a existing rhythm section

 

so far I am having very little luck

 

I understand the whole numbering of the notes in a scale and tried doing some work with that like one example

kinda like on the chord of G

G B D

and then having the lead play over it using the Em scale with notes

E G B

 

this way the rhythm is playing the 1 3 5 of key of G

and lead is playing 1 3 5 of Em

 

but that seems to simplistic and limiting to just play the relative minor over a key and play only the same triad relationship as in 1 3 5 or whatever notes I am playing from that scale

 

 

the progression I am playing is G Em C D in the key of Gmaj

the lead notes are listed to the right of the chord

G - e g b

Em - c e g

C - a c e

D - b d f#

 

sure I guess it sounds ok (used powertab so not sure how it would sound in on a real guitar)

but what other scales could I play in place of Em for the lead part

 

so how do I go about playing something other then the same triad in relation to the root as in the rhythm part

ie

chord of C is 1 4 6 in the key of G

a c e is the 1 4 6 of Em

what if I wanted to play something other then the 1 4 6 over that chord in either that scale or another scale/mode

if if I wanted to play more then just three notes over that chord

how would I go about doing that?

 

 

also what about 5th chords

how would I go about making a lead part for them

 

like if I had a progression of C5 G5 D5

what would you do for lead.

what scale or mode would you use

why would you use it

much detail as you can give would be nice

they just confuse me a little more with writing a lead since there is no 3rd to play with as far as notes go

 

 

sorry if I used the wrong words to describe what I am saying or if I am confusing

haven't been learning theory all that long so still trying to get the hang of it

 

but will take any help I can get

 

 

thank you guys

[Poparad]

For your progression in G (you could just look at the whole thing as a I IV vi iii in G) you could use the triad up a third from each chord (as opposed to down a third like you listed). You could also combine all those notes of both a triad above and below to make a larger group of notes to work with.

 

As for doing stuff with scales, since it's all in G, just use notes from the G major scale as passing tones between those chord tones you already have picked out.

 

 

As for power chords, tread them just like normal chords. They function pretty much the same way, but they just omit the thirds of the chords they function as. For example, C5 G5 D5 could be either C G D in the key of G (IV I V) and then you can use the related notes from that key. Or, it could be C G Dm (I V ii in C), and then you can just use the notes from C.

 

With power chords, it's just a matter of seeing them as more than the 2 notes they are, and figuring out what triads they imply from a particular key.

[rx7speed]

in the key of G on a g chord

 

is there any theory as far as which notes to use in the lead part other then the 1 3 5 notes of the scale I am playing?

I hear ppl tell me just play what you feel but would also like to know the true theory behind it

 

 

also how do you really go about chosing a scale for a backing rhythm other then just the minor/major scales

 

 

 

and two last question

remember seeing somewhere in all honesty there is a difference between G aeolian and Am

 

how can you really tell the difference between the two?

 

and with modes how is it playing a mode makes something sound different even though they share the same nots

[Poparad]

 

Originally posted by rx7speed in the key of G on a g chord is there any theory as far as which notes to use in the lead part other then the 1 3 5 notes of the scale I am playing? I hear ppl tell me just play what you feel but would also like to know the true theory behind it

 

 

There's no real set rules for approaching this, which is why so many people can play such different things over a simple G major chord.

 

As for guidelines, once you know the whole scale that matches the chord, you can focus on the 1 3 5 of the chord, and use the rest of the scale to move between those three notes. Generally if you end a line on a chord tone it'll work out fine.

 

 

also how do you really go about chosing a scale for a backing rhythm other then just the minor/major scales

 

 

Mostly a matter of taste. It's like any aspect of composing; there's isn't just one way to do it. Out of 10 songs I might write, all 10 may have started out from a different idea or a different approach.

 

Sometimes that approach might be " I want to write something in F lydian" or maybe you're just playing with some chords and you like how they just happened to work out.

 

There are really only a few scales or modes to choose from anyway. Barring exotic scales, you've just got the 7 modes of the major scale (only 6 are really used anyway... locrian doesn't work too well), harmonic and melodic minors and that's about it.

 

 

 

and two last question remember seeing somewhere in all honesty there is a difference between G aeolian and Am how can you really tell the difference between the two?

 

 

I'm not sure if you made a typo there or not, but I think you're asking if there's a difference between to modes that have all the same notes in common (correct me if I'm interpreting your question wrong). The answer follows your last and very excellent question:

 

and with modes how is it playing a mode makes something sound different even though they share the same nots

 

 

It's all about what note is emphasized. There really is no difference whatsoever between the 7 modes of a key, since they are all the same notes. However, if you emphasize one note, it'll sound to the ear like the 'tonic' note.

 

How do you emphasize it? Well, one way is to write a melody that keeps returning to a particular pitch (assuming it's an unaccompanied melody).

 

Another way is to play a melody and put a chord underneath it to emphasize a certain mode. Take the notes "C D E F E". If you play them by themselves it kind of sounds like C major. However, play it with a Dm chord under all of it and it suddenly sounds like D dorian. This is because of the relation of the notes to the chord. Try it again with just Em underneath. Now it really sounds like E phrygian. In these cases, the harmony really is what chooses the tonic note, and the melody says in more detail what mode it is.

 

If that was a little confusing, try this: Play Dm and then over that the melody "B C D E D" It sounds dorian because all those notes are found only in D dorian (natural 6 b7 1 2 1) Now, keep that Dm chord going and now play "Bb C D E D" Now it sounds like D aeolian, since those are the notes of that mode (b6 b7 1 2 1). Once again a Dm chord, and now play the melody of "Bb C D Eb D" Now it sounds phrygian because of the Eb (b6 b7 1 b2 1).

 

 

Modes are really one spelled out strongly when you have a melody and a harmony to specify what exactly is the tonic and what exactly is the scale being used over top.

 

 

I hope that helps. Modes are an inherantly confusing subject and it's hard to explain without getting very verbose and technical.

 

If there's still something you're not clear on, ask and I'll try to explain it in more detail, or maybe some of the other guys on the forum and offer a different perspective that will help out.

[SeattleRuss]

Having trouble understanding the ins & outs of modes is very common. I teach, and I've found that explaining things and demonstrating with a *keyboard*, or even just a crude drawing of a one, often will cause the proverbial "lightbulb" to come on for lots of people. It so much more visual in that regard....

[rx7speed]

 

Originally posted by Poparad Mostly a matter of taste. It's like any aspect of composing; there's isn't just one way to do it. Out of 10 songs I might write, all 10 may have started out from a different idea or a different approach. Sometimes that approach might be " I want to write something in F lydian" or maybe you're just playing with some chords and you like how they just happened to work out. There are really only a few scales or modes to choose from anyway. Barring exotic scales, you've just got the 7 modes of the major scale (only 6 are really used anyway... locrian doesn't work too well), harmonic and melodic minors and that's about it.     how would the pentatonic fit in there vs the major or minor scales?   or do many of you just consider the pentatonic just a minor variation of those     I'm not sure if you made a typo there or not, but I think you're asking if there's a difference between to modes that have all the same notes in common (correct me if I'm interpreting your question wrong). The answer follows your last and very excellent question:     yea no typo on that some where I was reading that c aeolean and Am even though they share the same notes and even share the same numbering on the notes that there is a difference between them in pure theory terms   [/quote It's all about what note is emphasized. There really is no difference whatsoever between the 7 modes of a key, since they are all the same notes. However, if you emphasize one note, it'll sound to the ear like the 'tonic' note.   How do you emphasize it? Well, one way is to write a melody that keeps returning to a particular pitch (assuming it's an unaccompanied melody).   Another way is to play a melody and put a chord underneath it to emphasize a certain mode. Take the notes "C D E F E". If you play them by themselves it kind of sounds like C major. However, play it with a Dm chord under all of it and it suddenly sounds like D dorian. This is because of the relation of the notes to the chord. Try it again with just Em underneath. Now it really sounds like E phrygian. In these cases, the harmony really is what chooses the tonic note, and the melody says in more detail what mode it is.   If that was a little confusing, try this: Play Dm and then over that the melody "B C D E D" It sounds dorian because all those notes are found only in D dorian (natural 6 b7 1 2 1) Now, keep that Dm chord going and now play "Bb C D E D" Now it sounds like D aeolian, since those are the notes of that mode (b6 b7 1 2 1). Once again a Dm chord, and now play the melody of "Bb C D Eb D" Now it sounds phrygian because of the Eb (b6 b7 1 b2 1).

 

so with that progression I gave the nots I played (simple as they might be) could be either Gmaj or E aeolean (sp?)

but the way they would sound against that backing progression would be more of the aeolean mode right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope that helps. Modes are an inherantly confusing subject and it's hard to explain without getting very verbose and technical. If there's still something you're not clear on, ask and I'll try to explain it in more detail, or maybe some of the other guys on the forum and offer a different perspective that will help out.

 

 

that they are

thank you for the help though I'm working on it little by little

 

 

 

 

 

 

talked about playing 5th chords

what about when using a two guitar part with no chord section

 

both guitars playing single notes that are not of an arpeggio

how well would something like that mesh with two differenct scales being used together with no real rhythm section and how would you figure the two out as far as getting them to sound right

[rx7speed]

 

Originally posted by SeattleRuss Having trouble understanding the ins & outs of modes is very common. I teach, and I've found that explaining things and demonstrating with a *keyboard*, or even just a crude drawing of a one, often will cause the proverbial "lightbulb" to come on for lots of people. It so much more visual in that regard....

 

 

yeah more or less I have been using powertab to play some of the things you guys are talking about to see howthey sound since I only have one guitar and my playing skills still are not that great

but this way I have the sound aspect of it

 

but how would you go about this whole keyboard idea?

[Poparad]

 

Originally posted by rx7speed how would the pentatonic fit in there vs the major or minor scales? or do many of you just consider the pentatonic just a minor variation of those

 

 

In essense just see these as major or minor scales minus 2 notes.

 

 

 

yea no typo on that some where I was reading that c aeolean and Am even though they share the same notes and even share the same numbering on the notes that there is a difference between them in pure theory terms

 

 

Hmm.. well C aeolian (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C) certainly does have different notes than Am (A B C D E F G). Maybe they meant C major and A minor. In that case, while they do share the same notes, the key of Am can also use A harmonic minor and A melodic minor which then do use different notes and have different chords. That's my guess as to what they were talking about.

 

 

so with that progression I gave the nots I played (simple as they might be) could be either Gmaj or E aeolean (sp?) but the way they would sound against that backing progression would be more of the aeolean mode right?

 

 

 

If you're talking about this one:

 

 

the progression I am playing is G Em C D in the key of Gmaj

 

 

Then I'd have to say it's more in G major. The chords are what defines the tonal center much stronger than the lead parts. The C D and back to G part is what really solidifies this as being in G.

 

 

 

 

talked about playing 5th chords what about when using a two guitar part with no chord section both guitars playing single notes that are not of an arpeggio how well would something like that mesh with two differenct scales being used together with no real rhythm section and how would you figure the two out as far as getting them to sound right

 

 

This is where you have to start using implied harmony. It's usually a lot more ambiguous and open to interpretation. If you stick to lots of arpeggios, then those are what will spell out the chords. If you're just using scales, it may note be as clear. It's always a case by case deal since how you arrange the two parts makes a huge difference in how they sound and what types of chords they are implying.