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Help with Mod's and Scales


Essex

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Posted

Greetings,

 

Ok first of all I learned last night about scales and mods....i thought that each scale had 5 forms and that each mod had 5 forms...crazy huh....thats a lot of {censored} to remember....so i now understand that there is an A major(ionian) and the second note of the A major scale would be a dorian....so forth and so on....so now i am confused....i know the form for the major scale...alright but that seems very restricted...if i want to play over an A progression using the A major scale....there is only 1 form to use? I know i can use the different mods but where else can i work in the A major scale....what is a good way to learn the scales and where every note is at...i have the entire fretboard memorized so i understand how everything goes together....just looking for a little understanding....I have been playing for 4 years now without any teachers so sorry to sound wrong....thanks for any help....you guys are always helpful....

 

Essex

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Posted

Those are both great posts but not really what i am asking...i don't want to use forms...that seems way to restrictive...i am looking for a way....ahhh {censored} it....i'll do it on my own....been doing it for 4 years....thanks yall for the posts....see ya....

Essex

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Posted

Originally posted by Essex

Those are both great posts but not really what i am asking...i don't want to use forms...that seems way to restrictive...i am looking for a way....ahhh {censored} it....i'll do it on my own....been doing it for 4 years....thanks yall for the posts....see ya....


Essex

 

 

Go ahead and ask your question. I sensed that you were asking something deeper, but I couldn't glean it from your post. Can you be more specific?

 

Also, those posts were not advocating the use of forms.

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Posted

Thanks for helping me out....it is a little deeper than that....

Basically I am just wondering how to move out of the box....that is not what i want...i know to many people that have told me to just use that form....do the greats just know all the notes in all the scales and just run them up and down the fretboard without knowing any forms...they just know where the notes are they can use and are reading notes as they play them....or how do you run up and down a scale...are modes used along with the major(ionian) scale......

Basically what i am asking in all the confusion is it better to play with knowing all the notes in all the scales and seeing the notes as you read them through you head...playing them....and just letting it all flow so intense....

Thanks for your help.....

I await your reply....

Essex

Posted

Originally posted by Essex

Thanks for helping me out....it is a little deeper than that....


Basically I am just wondering how to move out of the box....that is not what i want...i know to many people that have told me to just use that form....do the greats just know all the notes in all the scales and just run them up and down the fretboard without knowing any forms...they just know where the notes are they can use and are reading notes as they play them....or how do you run up and down a scale...are modes used along with the major(ionian) scale......


Basically what i am asking in all the confusion is it better to play with knowing all the notes in all the scales and seeing the notes as you read them through you head...playing them....and just letting it all flow so intense....


Thanks for your help.....


I await your reply....


Essex

 

 

I personally have abandoned scale box patterns long ago and persued learning all the letter names of the scales. For me, this opened up the whole fretboard and broke me out of playing in certain 'scale shapes' all the time. However, I do know a number of people who are pretty good players who do play using patterns. So I think it's a person by person basis as to what works best. I recommend that if you are feeling limited by box patterns, then go ahead and learn the letter names and approach scales from that sense. You'll probably find it as liberating as I did when I was asking the same questions to myself that you're asking.

 

Before I played guitar I was a trumpet player, and before I started a letter name approach for scales on guitar, I was learning piano. On the piano and trumpet, if I knew the notes I needed to play of a chord or scale, I wouldn't have to think up a valve or key pattern on the instrument because I knew where all the notes were. I knew how to play a C on the instruments, I knew where Bb's were. So I figured if I learned the notes on the guitar, I could just go from that approach. For me I find it a lot easier to follow chord changes that move rapidly through different scales/keys because rather than think up a new scale pattern for each position and each scale, I would just pick a few notes from the 12 on the fretboard and play the scale anywhere.

 

I found it helped me out immensely, but it is a great deal of work to get all that down to the point where you don't have to think about it anymore.

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Posted

Thanks alot....thats what i figured also....how would you say is the best way to go about that...just finding and picking and practice...well hell i just answered my own question....any good exercises you know of or good routines....thanks man...laters

Essex

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Posted

My methodology is a bit different from Poparad's. Instead of memorizing every note of a scale and where it is on the fretboard, I memorize the intervals of the and make sure that I know where my root is at all times.

For example, if I had to play Bb lydian, I don't explicitly know when I am playing C D Eb F G or A. However, I do know where all the Bb's are on the fretboard and I can instantly tell you where the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th are. And because I know those, I know how to sharp or flat them each one.

In a nutshell, I know where Bb is and I can play the Bb lydian because I know where to sharp the 11. But other than Bb, I wouldn't know the other note names.

This happens for every chord. So, I still have to know the note of each fret, but I only keep one in memory at all times (sometimes two).

To extend this to a practice, what I would do is pick a scale that you're working on. Then go the root of the scale anywhere on the fretboard. Then play the scale up and down at that fret. When you do this, don't pay attention to the pattern. Pay attention to the interval to the root of the scale. Now go to another root of the scale somewhere else on the fretboard. Play the scale at that position. This focus you on intervals rather than patterns.

You can also learn the note names, which is ideal, but in the end, even if you know the note names, you'll have to know the intervals. Learn those first.

Posted

Heh, good timing. We just had a lengthy discussion here last week on memorizing the fretboard:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=553139


I think there are a couple other recent threads on it to. But anyway, what I said in that thread is exactly what I'd say here. Essentially I did a lot of visualization of letter names. By picking a scale, you both limit the notes down to just 7 at a time, and also you're learning them in groups that you will use when playing (since you play scales, practice scales). A lot of playing through the different positions, thinking and saying the notes aloud, trying to increase how fast I can play a scale and mentally keep up with the notes...

There are some other suggestions in there that are very good too, although I didn't go about those approaches. It's another one of those 'whatever works for you' kind of deals. There are enough replies in that thread to cover just about anyone's learning style.

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Posted

Originally posted by thliu

My methodology is a bit different from Poparad's. Instead of memorizing every note of a scale and where it is on the fretboard, I memorize the intervals of the and make sure that I know where my root is at all times.


For example, if I had to play Bb lydian, I don't explicitly know when I am playing C D Eb F G or A.

 

 

That's too bad, because if you used Proparad's method, you'd know that Bb Lydian has an E natural.

 

Also, with your method, you are always thinking in terms of the root. This is one reason I decided to learn the fretboard instead of using patterns. When I used patterns, it was always a two step process, because I had to identify the root before I could apply the pattern.

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Posted
Originally posted by Flanger



That's too bad, because if you used Proparad's method, you'd know that Bb Lydian has an E natural.


Also, with your method, you are always thinking in terms of the root. This is one reason I decided to learn the fretboard instead of using patterns. When I used patterns, it was always a two step process, because I had to identify the root before I could apply the pattern.



:) Actually, I was thinking natural 11 instead of #11 because I had ionian on the brain. Good catch though.

And I'm not applying a pattern around the root. I'm using the root as a "home base." Everything should be in terms of the root. There are actually many roots you need to be thinking of when you solo in a song.

1. Root of the key of the song
2. Root of the current chord
3. And the root of the implied chord if it's different from #2.

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Posted
Originally posted by thliu



:)
Actually, I was thinking natural 11 instead of #11 because I had ionian on the brain. Good catch though.



Ah, ok. I probably could have pointed that out in a nicer manner. Anyway, I do sort of use your approach as well. When I just let go and start improvising, I'll see the notes of the scale light up all around where I'm playing, but I also keep the sound of the various intervals in mind and will deviate from it to hit certain sounds I want.

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Posted

I do it like thliu. memorized the intervals based on a root-note.

For me the main advantage of this method is, that it's a lot easier to learn than the note names of every mode in every key. I just learned it for the natural minor scale and then memorized the differences to it.

Using interval names I can play build arpeggios "on the fly". When I want to play an a-minor, and I'm currently thinking in C-major all I have to do is to hit the 6, root and 2. No matter in what key or mode I am. This approach is ideal for a mathematical person.

Otoh I can't spell chords. Ask me about the notes that build f-minor 7, and I have to think a minute about it. That's the downside.

Nils

(edit, corrected stupid typo)

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Posted

I understand both ways...but the intervals...wouldn't that kinda be a pattern...i mean you are basically remember steps....why not learn the actual note...I think of it like this....if you can type without looking at your hands and you can use every finger to type then learning the notes shouldn't be a problem...thats what i am going for...got a long ways to go....but hopefully something will come of it....thanks for your help....please feel free to comment ..... talk to you later....

Essex

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