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can someone please explain how this C/Bb/Ab stuff works?


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Posted

i don't understand why someone who plays tenor sax has to look at a C clef chart and play all the notes a major second higher or lower or whatever they do to transpose? (or alto plays them a minor third lower - or whatever they do:confused:)

 

so if they play a D, it actually sounds C? that's {censored}ing stupid! why don't they just call their D note a C note?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Posted
Originally posted by Sincerity Blvd

so if they play a D, it actually sounds C? that's {censored}ing stupid! why don't they just call their D note a C note?

:confused:
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:confused:
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:confused:



With today's instruments, yes, it is pretty stupid, but 200-300 years ago it wasn't because some instruments could only play in certain keys.

For example, before the trumpet had vavles, it could only play partials (the overtone series, or basically like only playing harmonics on one open string on guitar). So consequently they had to have 12 different horns to play in 12 different keys, and the trumpet parts from back then were all just arpeggios since that's all they could do.

So, rather than have the horn player have to learn new notes for each horn (yeah, lazy sort of) they just transposed everything. It's kind of like seeing a cord chart where there's a capo on a fret. Rather then write what the actual chords are, they write what they would be if they were open without a capo.

Well, later horns got vavles so this really wasn't necessary, but everyone still used it out of habit, and thus it has continued.

They still make C trumpets and Bb trumpets, and in orchestras most guys do play C trumpets (concert pitch).

So the reason is because of outdated convention, but everyone is trained to do it this way, so it's how it's done.

Also think of it this way; a sax player can switch between Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bari without having to learn a new fingering system for each horn (or at least two different ones in this case because tenor and soprano are and octave apart, and alto and bari are an octave apart). If the charts are transposed, the horn player just has to put down the same fingering on each horn to play that note same on the staff (assuming he's reading a different transposed part for each horn).




Here's how to remember how they work:

Bb - Trumpet, Tenor and Soprano sax, Clarinet: When they play a C, it sounds as a Bb. That's why it's called a "Bb" horn. It's based on what note it actually sounded when they play their written C. If you're writting for them, write everything up a whole step from concert pitch.

Eb - Alto and Bari sax: When they play their C, an Eb sounds. You'll want to write everything down a minor third or up a major sixth.

There's also F for F horns, in which everything is written up a fourth.

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Posted

There are (or were), the last I know, 6 different saxophones: bass, baritone, tenor, alto, soprano, sopranino. They are ALL 'transposing instruments' (meaning that, when they play a 'C', you don't hear a C concert pitch; you hear some other note).

Bass, tenor, and soprano are all Bb instruments; when they play a written 'C', you hear a Bb. Tenor is 1 octave higher than bass....soprano one octave higher than tenor.

Baritone, alto, and sopranino are all Eb instruments.

The keys on all of them are virtually the same; if you can play one, you can play them all! You just need to transpose the notes when writing for one of them...the player doesn't have to worry about it...when the player sees a second line 'G', they play a G on the instrument (1st three fingers on left hand all held down). THe note that comes OUT, however, is never truly a 'G'. :p (a concept the predates equal temperatment)

The two main reasons that transposing instruments exist are to simplify reading in terms of clef, and to make it possible for a musician to play an entire family of instruments (as per my sax example).

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Posted

To a VERY good player, it would be easy to learn think in concert pitch. I'm working on this trying to internalize the mantra "There are no hard keys". In reality, on sax, some key signatures require a lot more finger work. Playing in C major is the easiest way to run a diatonic octave on the horn. As you add accidentals, you have to modify these "simple" fingerings. C>C requires the standard 8 fingerings. In G Major you have 7 standard fingerings, and one modified fingering (two choices, finger an F, and either throw in the extra F# key with your right ring finger, or lift up your right index, but depress your right middle)
A C#/Db Major scale is much harder to finger cleanly and quickly than C Major!
Having said that, imagine the difficulty of having to learn that instead of C# being hardest, D#/Eb is hardest on the Tenor/Soprano, but A#/Bb is just as hard on alto/baritone, even though they'd use the same fingering. Not to mention the (rare) C Melody sax...when you take that horn into account, you have to learn three completely different "fingering sets" to read music off of the 5 line staff. Which "fingering set" you would use would depend on which version of the horn you are playing. This would be like trying to learn to read in treble, alto, and tenor cleff (not to mention it's a good idea for tenor/bari players to be able to read bass cleff). It is not impossible to read in all of these cleffs, but it is certainly much easier to only have to learn to read one of them.
It it were not for transposing, it would be very advanced skill to double across instruments in the same family. By using the same fingerings to the same places on the staff, doubling on different horns is as simple as re-writing the music in a different key instead of re-learning the instrument in a different key.
My best guitar analogy would be that if you tune down a half step, the tab stays the same. Imagine if you tuned up a sixth, and had to read off the same page (of tab) as someone who is tuned to standard. You'd have to do a lot of mental subtraction, and anything written low on the neck, you'd have to drop to a lower string, etc. You could take all of that mental calculation out by transposing the sheet music so that you each have your own page written out so that you are playing the same notes.

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Posted

thanks for the explainations, i'm glad i don't have to deal with any of that stuff on guitar
:)

Originally posted by bassmantele



Tell us more, Beethoven.


Moron.


someone get this chick a tampon!:eek:

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Posted
Originally posted by edeltorus

just ignore him...


I won't call him a troll, maybe he just had a bad day...




Actually, don't ignore HIM...just ignore that one post. I've seen Bassman post before, and he's a good guy. So, let's just give him a mulligan on this one. ;)

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Posted

just thought i'd mention that guitar actually is a transposing instrument as well. it just happens to be transposed an octave, so the notes played on guitar actually sound an octave lower than written (i.e. if you want to play "middle C" on the guitar, you have to play C on the first fret of the B string, but if are reading a piece of guitar music and you see the C that is one ledger line down, you play the C on the A string, third fret). this is why you play up an octave when reading non-guitar music.

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Posted

It is impossible to make a set of instruments in the different ranges (soprano, alto, tenor) yet keep the same fingerings for the same note in a different air channel.

For the player it is definately easier to transpose than to have the same fingering be a different note on each instrument.

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