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Is there such a key?


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Posted

 

Originally posted by PorridgeOfHate

As E min 7?


A little riff I just came up with basically is in E minor, but it includes a flat 7th from that key.


So does that mean the song/riff is in E min 7?

 

 

man {censored} is so muddied up now it doesn't really matter what you call it. it could be something modal, like E dorian or something.

post more info if you want a better idea.

 

peace

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Posted

 

Originally posted by lazaraga



man {censored} is so muddied up now it doesn't really matter what you call it. it could be something modal, like E dorian or something.

post more info if you want a better idea.


peace

 

 

Well I'm speaking theoretically. I mean I've never heard a key being anything but major or minor, but why not?

 

Oh, the progression goes like:

 

E min

G maj

F# min

A maj

C maj

E min

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Posted

all those chords are from E dorian, except the Cmaj, which could be seen as a "modal interchange chord", from E aeolian

 

so if you're composing a melody or soloing over this progression, use E dorian over all the chords, except the Cmaj where you would use E Aeolian

 

sim

Posted

There is no such thing as a key of 'Em7' or any other chord name.

 

Regular E minor already includes the b7 you are using anyway. In combination with melodic and harmonic minor scales, all 3 of which are compatable with the 'minor key' idea, you can cover a lot of different chords with just the label of "Key of E minor"

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Posted

yup - a "key" is a group of 7 notes - Em7 only has 4, so it's not enough to define a key.

 

to define a key, you must establish a root note and then define what the other 6 notes will be - this is usually done by including the name of a scale or mode - so "E dorian" is a key, because is gives you E F# G A B C# D and therefore gives you the seven chords from that key, which are Em7, F#m7, Gmaj7, A7, Bm7, C#m7b5 and Dmaj7

 

some people only ever refer to the parent major scale when discussing modes of the major scale so they would describe this as D major, but for communication porpoises, this can be confusing as D isn't the "root" of the progression you laid out earlier

 

sim

 

as an excersise, see if you can figure out why the seven chords i listed above are from the key of E dorian, and why the Cmaj chord doesn't fit into this key

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Posted

 

Originally posted by Poparad

There is no such thing as a key of 'Em7' or any other chord name.


Regular E minor already includes the b7 you are using anyway.

 

 

O.K., but I thought in a minor key you only flat the third. Oh well...

 

 


In combination with melodic and harmonic minor scales, all 3 of which are compatable with the 'minor key' idea, you can cover a lot of different chords with just the label of "Key of E minor"

 

 

Sure, but wouldn't it be useful to be able to note that in the key signature? Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

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Posted

 

Originally posted by PorridgeOfHate


Sure, but wouldn't it be useful to be able to note that in the key signature?

 

 

yes, that's done simply by including the scale name - so saying E dorian, E melodic minor, E harmonic minor, E aeolian etc distinguishes each one from the other - they're all minor scales rooted on E, but the scale name defines what the other 6 notes will be

 

sim

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Posted

Originally posted by simeon

yup - a "key" is a group of 7 notes - Em7 only has 4, so it's not enough to define a key.

 

Just to be churlish I could argue that E min has only three notes, not enough to define a key either. So there can't be a key called E min? :p

 


to define a key, you must establish a root note and then define what the other 6 notes will be - this is usually done by including the name of a scale or mode - so "E dorian" is a key, because is gives you E F# G A B C# D and therefore gives you the seven chords from that key, which are Em7, F#m7, Gmaj7, A7, Bm7, C#m7b5 and Dmaj7

 

Why are these 7th chords? Why aren't they simply Em, F#m, Gmaj, Amaj, Bm, C#m, Dmaj?

 

For that matter, why do some of the 7th chords have flat 5s?

 


some people only ever refer to the parent major scale when discussing modes of the major scale so they would describe this as D major, but for communication porpoises, this can be confusing as D isn't the "root" of the progression you laid out earlier

 

 

Why would one do so? This seems REALLY bass ackwards since not only is D not in the progression, this isn't a major scale.

 

 


sim


as an excersise, see if you can figure out why the seven chords i listed above are from the key of E dorian, and why the Cmaj chord doesn't fit into this key

 

 

You got me there. I never understood the point of modes anyway since everytime they've been introduced by a teacher they were explained as, "This mode is the same as this key."

 

Which alway had me asking, "So why are we bothering learning modes since synonymous with keys?" There seemed to be no net benefit to the additional complication. Is there really anything you could not do/understand without thinking in terms of modes that you absolutely couldn't do thinking in terms of keys?

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Posted

to take your questions in order...

 

no, there can't be a key of Em either!

 

i used 7th chords, but i didn't have to - i could have used 9th chords, 11th chords or 13th chords, if i wanted, but 7th chords provides enough information and a bit more than just naming the triads, as a triad can have a flat 7th on top, or a natural 7th, depending on what key they're from - don't worry about the fact that used 7th chords, i didn't have to - it's just my preference

 

one of the chords had a flat 5th - i will try to explain this below...

 

remember that chords are just several notes from a scale being played simultaneously - so chords and scales are essentially the same thing - they can't be separated

 

let's have a look at E dorian and write out all the notes over 2 octaves...

 

E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B C# D E

 

now starting from the first E, take every other note (going up in thirds) and write them out...

 

E G B D

 

then do this for the other 6 notes as well...

 

F# A C# E

G B D F#

A C# E G

C# E G B

D F# A C#

 

ok we have just written out the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th of all the chords in E dorian..

 

Em7

F#m7

Gmaj7

A7

C#m7b5

Dmaj7

 

we could carry on and add more notes to these chords by using the same method...

 

E G B D F# (Em9)

E G B D F# A (Em11)

E G B D F# A C# (Em13)

 

you'll notice that Cmaj isn't in this list of chords - as an excercise, why not try writing out all the chords in E aeolian (E F# G A B C D)

 

to answer your last question - yes, E dorian is the same as D major and you could argue that there's no point learning E dorian if you already know D major - but the point is - they sound completely different!

 

sim

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Posted

 

Originally posted by PorridgeOfHate

Thanks for the reply simeon! It was very helpful.


One issue though, of course there's a key of E minor! Or was Bach wrong in naming "Prelude in E Minor" ?

 

 

There are 12 major and 12 minor keys, so yes, there IS a key of E minor.

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