Members poopypocket Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 Hey guys, when you improvise, can you visualise the scale pattern that you are using over the fretboard? Or do you just memorise licks that work in that key and bust out licks? Or a combination of both? I'm asking because i find it difficult to visualise the scale pattern across the fretboard, and makes my improvising slow, especially if i intend on moving up and down the fretboard. Also, how do you memorise licks? Just play them over and over? PS. I know all 7 major scale patterns. Thanks
Members Mr.Hanky Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 Well then this is one (1) example of why I find learning the modes usefull. It enables you to "map out" the fretboard in a given key. If we use G major as an example...If you know the modes in G major you can ascend up the neck and stay in key in any position. You can also link the scales together to get some of those kool runs that I was bombarded with in the 80's, Randy Rhoades comes to mind, I still love his playing! Anyhow, a G major scale in third position gets you started after that you would have .. A Dorian in 5th position.B Phrygian in 7th position.C Lydian in 9th. Ect....all the way up to G major again at the 15th fret. This may be a bit advanced but it is one way to learn the neck in every key, start with G and move on through the circle of 5th's till you can cover every key. As I said this is one (1) example of using modes to your advantage, it has nothing to do with modal playing. You may want to start with all 5 pentatonic scales first. MH
Members Nickdel Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 There is a contradiction here, for me, at least. Personally, I feel that memorizing licks is the one thing that hurts my lead playing the most. I'd rather rely on improvisation. The problem is that you can't really figure out how the notes can go together without learning some tried and true licks. You learn what others have done, and try to take the next step. What I have discovered is that you must learn what you can by practicing, and you have to know it so well that when it comes time to play, your fingers can play what needs to be played without thinking of it. That's the idea: get everything under your fingers so that playing a lead line becomes like talking. You don't have to stop and plan out a sentence when you speak. The thought can become voiced almost simultaneously. For me, that's the goal. Another note: One thing that helps me with learning how notes can go together is to learn a lick in one position, and then transcribe it to another position, adding notes on other strings. You can discover some amazing things this way. It helps me stay out of the "I'm not progressing" rut. But, to answer the original question, I try not to visualize anything, or think of scale patterns, or what works here. I try to feel the music and let out whatever fits over the music. Am I successful? About 10% of the time. The rest is just me rehashing the same old {censored} I always play. But it's those moments of inspiration, when a never before played combination of notes comes out (from my guitar, at least), when I truly enjoy what I'm doing. It's such a great feeling, it's {censored}ing addictive.
Members Zetora Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 Thats all well and fair, though i know i am just starting theory wise i just use to play covers. I dont know how long you have been playing but i find visualising them works, draw them up on excel thats good, well for me anyway. I would say try everything you can and then decide whats best for you, i know i have always been good with numbers and that so i try to memorise thing and visualise them and things like that but it all depends on yourself really. I know if i just went with what i thought was good i probably wouldn't jump a few octaves up the strings or anything. Just experiment, thats the only way. Sorry if i'm no help at all as i suspect but hey, try it lol
Members skutch Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 As far as mapping out scales on excel, there is an easier way. Try JGuitar for guitar scales.
Members Zetora Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 I do agree with you there and dont Skutch, If you plan them out onto excel you can keep a record of what you know and you can visualise them better and understand the note sequencing. I know its all down to personal preferrence on how people like to learn but i have found ti works well and its good at keeping track of what you know, well have covered i should put it.
Poparad Posted July 10, 2004 Posted July 10, 2004 I've never been one for memorizing licks, but I do study them a lot. I learn what it is about them that makes them sound the way they do, and then incorporate that into my playing. In a sense I am memorizing a lick, but I'm memorizing things in a less concrete way and more of a fluid, theoretical way. I study a lick to figure out 'why' it works, and rather than taking the lick and repeating it, I take that 'why' and apply it to my improvising. As for scale patterns, I gave up using those once I learned the letter names of the fretboard. It's a tough task to undertake, but it really helped out my playing knowing ever letter name solidly up and down the neck. But in order for that to work, you have to be able to know your scales and arpeggios by note name very well, rather than by pattern on the fretboard. I'm not totally divorced from playing patterns, as the guitar is a visual instrument and you will inevitably end up playing some aspect of it by sight, but by coupling that with knowing the notes I'm playing and guiding my playing like that, it has made me a much stronger player as I always know exactly what it is I'm doing.
Members Zetora Posted July 10, 2004 Members Posted July 10, 2004 Paparad thats why i like to use excel as i find it is a lot easier to see the notes, cause then you can see the notes and the shapes so you wont just relate the shapes. Just ensure you call the patterns by there name. Already within 2 weeks usuing it i know so much and have already remembered it and the shape without playing it on my bass much at all. Of course it is better to learn it on bass and as i can play it on bass thats a good think but if i can memorise it then i will be fine playing it on my bass its just getting my muscle memory better which i am working on.
Members bassmantele Posted July 11, 2004 Members Posted July 11, 2004 Originally posted by Poparad As for scale patterns, I gave up using those once I learned the letter names of the fretboard. I'd really like to understand what you mean by that. Scale patterns, by definition, are made up of the positions of notes on the neck. Do you mean that you make up new fingerings every time you play? I don't understand how you can play without using patterns unless you're using one finger on your left hand. Seriously - I don't understand what learning the letter names of the fretboard has to do with fingering choise. They are not exclusive - they go together. To play a C major melody near the 12th fret, you need to know where the Cs are in that area of the neck.
Poparad Posted July 11, 2004 Posted July 11, 2004 Originally posted by bassmantele I'd really like to understand what you mean by that. Scale patterns, by definition, are made up of the positions of notes on the neck. Do you mean that you make up new fingerings every time you play? I don't understand how you can play without using patterns unless you're using one finger on your left hand. Seriously - I don't understand what learning the letter names of the fretboard has to do with fingering choise. They are not exclusive - they go together. To play a C major melody near the 12th fret, you need to know where the Cs are in that area of the neck. Hmm... let's see if I can try to explain it better. I agree, it is absolutely essential to know where the C's are in order to play a C major melody somewhere. However, when you know solidly where the C's are, the D's are, the E's are, and all the other notes of the scale, and are able to visualize them all at once anywhere on the neck, then relying on dot patterns in order to play the melody is no longer needed. When I'm playing C major at the 8th fret, I'm still playing the same shape that you see on countless websites and in countless books as the "C major scale pattern," but that's not what I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of the notes of the C major scale, and I play them as such. When you play within a 4-5 fret span, you end up playing those patterns without even trying. Perhaps if I put it this way: rather than visualizing a scale with a dot on each fret such as this: Instead I'm picturing the letter names of each of the degrees of the scale like so: Yes, it still happens to be that shape, but I'm not bound to just playing in that shape. Since I know the letter names so well all over the neck, I can easily change positions without having to think up a new box pattern. It's like having one giant pattern on the fretboard that is fixed. This requires you to know your keys really well, but I find it an advantageous approach as I'm always aware of what notes I'm playing. Therefore I know how they relate to the chord I'm playing over at the moment, and thus, most importantly, how it will sound. The other advantage to this is if I wish to slightly change the scale by changing only one or two notes, I can do so without thinking up a new scale box pattern. Rather, I just change the one or two notes and the rest of the scale remains the same. What I'm trying to say is, I think in terms of letter names everywhere, all the time, rather than thinking of anonymous dots in a scale box pattern that looks the same in each key.
Members XXX Posted July 12, 2004 Members Posted July 12, 2004 Originally posted by Poparad Instead I'm picturing the letter names of each of the degrees of the scale like so: What I'm trying to say is, I think in terms of letter names everywhere, all the time, rather than thinking of anonymous dots in a scale box pattern that looks the same in each key. actually from what you are saying , you are first visualizing a scale box pattern and then converting the pattern to letter names or you would have just a block of all letters with no gaps that arent unnamed . I used the CAGED system to get the patterns down and can easily visualize the fretboard that way. I like to check out some licks and then make them mine by just incorporating the idea of the lick that appeals to me most .
Members edeltorus Posted July 12, 2004 Members Posted July 12, 2004 interesting how difefrent people think. I always have the chord shapes visualized that are nessesary for my playing. I also "see" some extensions such as the two seventh, two sixth and the two ninth.. But that's it, if I want to play something different I either have to pull a lick out of my bag or recall the scale pattern.
Members skatom Posted July 12, 2004 Members Posted July 12, 2004 I'm with Poparad, to me its all note letter names with superimposed chord forms, and rather than learning a lick, I prefer to study a line in context to find out what makes it tick, and apply thouse sounds rather than licks taken 'literally' to my playing. To the original poster, however, keep nabbing away at those scale patterns, repetition is the only way to learn things like this. Then you'll be able to 'see' them. good luck, tommy b
Members Nickdel Posted July 12, 2004 Members Posted July 12, 2004 Originally posted by GuitarPorter actually from what you are saying , you are first visualizing a scale box pattern and then converting the pattern to letter names or you would have just a block of all letters with no gaps that arent unnamed .I used the CAGED system to get the patterns down and can easily visualize the fretboard that way. I like to check out some licks and then make them mine by just incorporating the idea of the lick that appeals to me most . It's not a box pattern. What he's saying is that he memorizes the letter names of each fret, then memorizes the letter names of the scale notes. This way, he can go anywhere on the fretboard and know what he needs to play. As far as I can tell, this method of approaching the fretboard is no better or worse than visualizing the box pattern. It's all in how the methods are applied. Even learning the letter names, you can still fall into the "box" trap.
Members d0zerz Posted July 12, 2004 Members Posted July 12, 2004 I'm still new with this whole improvisiation thing...but I've been slowly memorizing scale patterns, but with their scale degrees. So if I want to start a lick on the 5th of E , I can "see" where it is in relation to the closest E (above and below). Then go from there. I agree with poparad's description of analyzing riffs you learn. I try to do that as much as I can. I find which scale degrees the riff uses (bend the b3 into a 3 then slide into the b5 etc..) that's kinda how I like to think about playing. I find doing that gives me new ideas for phrasing.
Members Flanger Posted July 14, 2004 Members Posted July 14, 2004 I haven't been practicing much lately, so my fretboard visualization has gone downhill a bit, but I do agree with Proparad. It's hard to explain, but when you know all the notes on a fretboard, ALL the notes in the key you are playing kind of "light up" on the entire fretboard. What I found most helpful from that approach is that it allows you to free yourself from the anchor points that are intrinsic to pattern playing. When I started memorizing the fretboard, I also found myself playing vertically a lot more; I was just jumping around to where it felt good. Even if it was more ergonomic to play the next note horizontally, I'd find myself sliding up or down to another position because of the sound.
Poparad Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by Flanger What I found most helpful from that approach is that it allows you to free yourself from the anchor points that are intrinsic to pattern playing. When I started memorizing the fretboard, I also found myself playing vertically a lot more; I was just jumping around to where it felt good. Even if it was more ergonomic to play the next note horizontally, I'd find myself sliding up or down to another position because of the sound. This is exactly what I've found with this approach. I play much more vertically as well now, and consequently my solos have a bit more dynamics to them because I'm changing the register and playing with a greater range. If I had confined myself to playing more in one position, I'd just be playing in the >2 octaves you get with that, but now I'm using the entire neck quite frequently. I also agree with the freedom from anchor points. This was my whole reason for trying this approach; if I couldn't quickly find that reference point, or if scales/chords changed to quickly and I didn't have time to find a fimiliar spot, bring up the right pattern, and then jump to the right spot in the scale, then I was just left lost for a couple bars or more during a solo. This way I can easily change scales to whatever I want without even breaking a line because in a sense, every note is now a point of fimiliarity or anchor point.
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