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Practicing scales from the lowest to the highest note on your instrument


Terje

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Posted

I think this is a good idea. To practice scales, and to think of scales, as going from the lowest note possible on your guitar to the highest. It can make you more and not so caught in positions.

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Posted

Terje -

I'm trying to put this whole scale thing together in my head. I feel like I practice going through the different positions of scales up and down the neck but nothing really comes of it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Is the goal of practicing these scales to get to the point of where you can be in a certain key and just "know" where you are going next?

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For me, my goal is to be able to play in any key in any position. If the chords change from C major to E major, I don't want to have to move my hand (although I certainly have the option). In order to accomplish this, I need to know what notes just changed (F, C, G, and D just became F#, C#, G#, and D#). Now, where on the fingerboard are those notes? Can I smoothly change keys while in the middle of a melody so that the melody matches the harmony?
No, I can't! :D
It is what I'm working on. To this end, I'm paying close attention to what notes are in what scales. I can recite key signatures of all major and natural minor scales, as well as spell out the notes without thinking about them. I've got them down to rote memorization, and can rattle them right off. There's a lot more than just Major and natural minor though. I need to learn other common scales/chords. I want to know them cold. I don't think the point is to learn finger patterns, and run them like crazy (although this can be a great way to work your technique).
I guess it comes down to asking yourself "What am I trying to learn?" Then ask yourself "how do scales help me learn this?"
That's just my perspective though. I'm curious to hear Terje's take on it. I'm still struggling with playing the changes. He's much further along than I am (from what little I've heard). I'm looking forward to getting his impressions on this.
Back in my sax playing days, things were easier. Most notes only have one fingering. You don't have to think about position. With a range of 2 octaves and a fifth though, you can only play once full octave on several scales (F#,G, and Ab). On these scales I started playing to the full range of the instrument (even though it didn't line up in nice even octaves). I started to feel more comfortable in these keys, because I could go anywhere on the horn comfortably, and stay in key. On those nice two octave scales, once you go below your lowest tonic note, it's easy to get lost. That's when I started playing all scales from the lowest note on the horn to the highest (in key) note.
I can't wait to buy a house so I can start playing horn again...

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Posted

Originally posted by euclid

I'm trying to put this whole scale thing together in my head. I feel like I practice going through the different positions of scales up and down the neck but nothing really comes of it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

 

I think I do. Watch out when you're practicing scales so it doesn't just become a mechanical thing. Try to make music with it. And even if you're "just" playing a major scale up and down, there is a lot of music in it. The scale itself is actually a beautiful melody, try to hear it.

 

 

Is the goal of practicing these scales to get to the point of where you can be in a certain key and just "know" where you are going next?

 

 

The goal must be to be able to make music without being hindered. Going form one key to the other without any trouble is certainly part of it. One thing though with this particular excercise is that every scale will become slightly different. Some will have the low open E in them, some won't. Some will be trickier than others.

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Posted

Originally posted by Shamuspizzbutt

Back in my sax playing days, things were easier. Most notes only have one fingering. You don't have to think about position.

 

 

It's a bit similar on balalajka actually. There are different fingerings for things but one will often be so much betterso it's not really a choice.

 

Here's my take on it... the way to learn how to play over different changes is to play over different changes. Sounds silly perhaps but I think the best thing you can do is to start improvising over different jazz tunes, or whatever else you want to play, and just learn as you go. Check the chords, find out what scales go with them and struggle your way through it.

 

Being able to recite the names of the notes in all scales is perhaps helpful to some extent but I think it's mainly a way to keep your mind occupied with music when you can't actually play.

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Posted

Originally posted by euclid

Terje -


I'm trying to put this whole scale thing together in my head. I feel like I practice going through the different positions of scales up and down the neck but nothing really comes of it. Do you understand what I'm saying?


Is the goal of practicing these scales to get to the point of where you can be in a certain key and just "know" where you are going next?

 

 

I find myself getting into that train of thought, where I start off with D and try to play the scale everywhere, outside of the 1-2 positions I know. It kind of flows, just like I learned on piano first and let it flow afterwards, to the point where you play the 6th note and the 7th key and octave just come out naturally in terms of spacing (1 fret between vi-vii, 0 frets between vii-I)

 

I do, however, find myself getting lost every once in a while, especially while changing strings. Keep in mind I've been learning scales for only about 3-4 months, so I'm not very good at them yet.

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Posted

Originally posted by Terje


Being able to recite the names of the notes in all scales is perhaps helpful to some extent but I think it's mainly a way to keep your mind occupied with music when you can't actually play.

 

 

Do you really believe this? I've found knowing my note names, and being good with scales to be a valuable skill in actual playing situations.

 

I end up often having to read parts for various transposing instruments on instruments in different keys. I couldn't play the parts and blend with the group if I didn't know my note/scale relationships. I think it's much more than a way to keep myself occupied while I can't play. I use this skill to play.

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Posted

Originally posted by Shamuspizzbutt



Do you really believe this? I've found knowing my note names, and being good with scales to be a valuable skill in actual playing situations.


I end up often having to read parts for various transposing instruments on instruments in different keys. I couldn't play the parts and blend with the group if I didn't know my note/scale relationships. I think it's much more than a way to keep myself occupied while I can't play. I use this skill to play.

 

 

Maybe it is for some people. If you read and play at the same time I suppose it is helpful to know the names of the notes. I never do that basically, and it's not my goal to get very good at that either. It goes against the idea of improvised music really.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. I just think that it's far more important to know how to play the notes than it is to know their names.

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Personally I just go by intervals. It's the same thing really except you don't have to mess with learning 12 different sets of notes for 12 different keys, the intervals stay the same in all keys. And I like thinking in terms of a b3 and b7 in a chord going with a scale that shares those intervals, instead of having to think through a whole extra layer of information like which notes those are. If you've got a I-IV-V blues, the IV chord obviously uses the 4th of the scale as it's root, then you can just look at how the intervals stack up in comparison to the scale, and concentrate on chord tones and non-chord tones, instead of having your brain stuffed full of a bunch of letters.

Just seems to make more sense to me.

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Posted

Originally posted by Little Dreamer

Personally I just go by intervals. It's the same thing really except you don't have to mess with learning 12 different sets of notes for 12 different keys, the intervals stay the same in all keys. And I like thinking in terms of a b3 and b7 in a chord going with a scale that shares those intervals, instead of having to think through a whole extra layer of information like which notes those are. If you've got a I-IV-V blues, the IV chord obviously uses the 4th of the scale as it's root, then you can just look at how the intervals stack up in comparison to the scale, and concentrate on chord tones and non-chord tones, instead of having your brain stuffed full of a bunch of letters.


Just seems to make more sense to me.

 

 

Would you mind explaining this to me a little more in depth? I never studied an ounce of theory and now that I've matured (albeit a little) I'd like to start getting into this stuff. When you say the intervals stay the same, what exactly does this mean. What the heck's an interval!?! If you don't feel like explaining, could you give me some required reading?

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Intervals are based on the major scale. Its intervals are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. No flats, no sharps. Doesn't matter what key you're in, those intervals are always the same. The minor scale is the same as the major scale, except it has the 3rd, 6th and 7th notes flatted, so you get 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7. So in C, your notes for the major scale are C, D, E, F, G, A, B. The minor scale would be C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb. However, when you start working in different keys, the notes change. The major scale in D is D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#. in E it's E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#. To find the minor scale in those keys, you flat the 3rd, 6th and 7th notes, so in D you've got D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C. Seems like a lot of work when just knowing that the minor scale is always 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 is essentially the same thing, and it doesn't change depending on the key.

Personally, I think there probably is some greater insight to be gained into music by learning all that stuff, but for my purposes, playing blues and heavy metal, thinking in terms of intervals seems to work just fine, and I can't really see any reason to learn the notes instead.

There's a lot more information about intervals. When you get into constructing chords, you get a lot of vocabulary words like a b3rd is a minor third (or an augmented 2nd), a natural third is a major 3rd, etc. That's how chords and scales relate to each other, they contain the same intervals.

How I learned this stuff is from reading Bruce Arnold's books Theory Workbook For Guitar Volumes I & II. Volume I is chords, Volume II is scales. The book Blues You Can Use - Guitar Chords by John Ganapes has a lot of good information on chord construction as well. Also, there's a great website http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/ Check out the section on intervals. It explains it 100 times better than I can.

The thing with theory is it's always best to get it from a variety of sources. Every book or website seems to leave out that one crucial piece of information you need in order to put it all together, so with several sources, and several approaches to explaining it, you can figure it out.

Good luck :D

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Posted

I really appreciate you taking the time to lay that out for me! Right now it seems like there is so much to learn that its almost overwhelming. But then to put it into perspective and step back and say, "man, I can play this guitar until the day I die" really allows you some time to improve. I'm going to check out those books you mentioned as well as the website. Once again, thanks!

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