Members couchjammer Posted November 23, 2004 Members Posted November 23, 2004 I'm looking at getting a training device to help improve my timeing. I'm thinking that a drum machine would be a lot better way to go than a metronome.Any advice or suggestions as to which type of drum machine to get and how to use them to improve timing.
Poparad Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 The advantage of a drum machine is that it will better simulate what you would be playing with in a band. The disadvantage is that they are often more expensive, take more time to program, and you have to know a thing or two about drum beat patterns to make a convincing accompaniment. A metronome can be small and portable and cheap (I love my Korg MA-20) and easy to use. The Korg I have can also play differnet rhythm patterns like a drum machine would, but not with the different drum sounds. The disadvantage would be metronomes don't have as many features (usually) and don't sound, well, like a drummer. However, with a metronome the time isn't totally spelled out to you like a drum machine does. The whole point of practicing with a metronome is to internalize a solid feel for time and not rely so much on external sources (i.e. other musicians) for the time. In this regard, I prefer a metronome.
Members bdemon Posted November 23, 2004 Members Posted November 23, 2004 I like keeping both handy. Or I go to www.metronomeonline.com for the free beatkeeper. Sometimes I'll just program a metronome click into my drum machine.
Members Terje Posted November 23, 2004 Members Posted November 23, 2004 Metronome without a doubt! The drum machine is evil, get it out of your life. Seriously, it's no good for you. I've played with drummers who grew up on those things and they suck. And for timing purposes it's better to have something that will not simulate the badn situation in any way or form. You want something that gives you the pulse and that's it, do the rest yourself. That's why you are practicing, to become better at doing it yourself.
Members Little Dreamer Posted November 23, 2004 Members Posted November 23, 2004 Drum machine, definitely. I've got a Zoom RT-123, I suppose it's middle of the line, thought there are certainly some that cost many times more. You can program in metronome clicks and all that stuff. I've got one of the user presets made up as a metronome click track and use it all the time. So you're getting a metronome with the drum machine. The only thing it doesn't do is allow you to play odd time signatures. You can get any tempo you want from 40bpm up to 200 or more. You can have it accent certain clicks if you want, it's got a velocity sesnitive keypad. You can change the sensitivity, hell you can do anything. I often prefer to practice with a drum track instead of the metronome click because it's much more like playing with a band - you tend to emphasize your groups of notes intead of playing them like, well, a metronome. If you're practicing rhythm playing, the drum machine is going to be in perfect time, so the only difference between it and a metronome is that the metronome goes click click click and the drum machine can give you a huge variety of sounds. Not to mention you can program in bass lines, or jam with the bass and drum tracks in its presets, change the key of the bass line with the puch of a couple buttons, etc. Of course if you do any home recording the thing is incredibly useful. The RT-123 is actually very easy to program, and you can create songs using a lot of patterns, write different drum and bass parts for the various parts of your songs, etc. One of the most useful features is you can control it via midi to sync up with a digital 4-tracker, so you don't have to waste a track on the bass and drums. It just plays along with the rhythm tracks you lay down, so if you've got a recorder you can record the whole backing part to practice your lead along with. I spend a lot of time practicing various solos, and recording a bass and drum track to practice those solos along with makes it about 100 times more fun to practice. And it's much better practice as well. Playing along with a track that simulates the song causes you to get the phrasing right, which isn't the case at all when you're playing along with click click click. When you're practicing something a hundred or a thousand times, it makes a lot of difference if you've got a bass line to practice with because the anticipation of the upcoming change in the rhythm part affects you're phrasing and accents. But of course you can practice to wood block clicks as well if you feel like it.
Members acousticbilly Posted November 23, 2004 Members Posted November 23, 2004 My vote is 100% for metronome, and I will echo Terje's point that one of the main benefits is precisely that it does not mimic the band experience. If the goal is to improve timing, one should seek to eliminate anything that could be used as a crutch. The bass line, and any full drum beat that you add will cause the groove to lock in place better. Now, if you're talking about making an album, that's exactly what you want. However, for practice purposes, you want _you_ to be the thing that locks the groove in place, not the programmed bass or drums. Sure, it's easier with the bass and whatnot in there - but that's like saying that a 5 pound weight is easier to lift than a 1o pound weight...
Members Terje Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 Originally posted by Little Dreamer I often prefer to practice with a drum track instead of the metronome click because it's much more like playing with a band... Which is when I think you should play with a band instead. And that beats everything when it comesto practice. Play with others and get better. If you're practicing rhythm playing, the drum machine is going to be in perfect time, so the only difference between it and a metronome is that the metronome goes click click click and the drum machine can give you a huge variety of sounds. Not to mention you can program in bass lines, or jam with the bass and drum tracks in its presets, change the key of the bass line with the puch of a couple buttons, etc. I've done that way too much. And I've played with people who have done it even more. One problem is that if you do this often enough you will not swing. Play with real people, or with a nome. Don't jam with a machine. Unless you want to sound like one.
Members GTM Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 First and foremost, the drum machine is not evil, it's your friend. It will prepare you for reality. When you go out into the real world and play with real people you will not hear the drone of a metronome, it will be snare, bass, cymbal, etc. You can buy a drum machine with a simple metronome built in, this will give you the option. When I want to practice to a simple beat I usually program a closed high hat to keep a beat. It's easy on the ears and does the same job as a metronome. Also, leaning how to use a drum machine never hurt, it's a skill that can only benefit you. Dare I say the only thing evil around here is Terje's crap advice again. I prefer to practice using a sequencer. I play scales, modes, riffs, patterns, etc., that I program into the sequencer. I use an older model sequencer that saves data on floppy disks. I play back through a synth, usually a paino patch. The advantages of this are many;1. I learn how to use a sequencer2. My exercises are saved, I usually warm up everyday for 1/2 hour with one. I enjoying the challange of making up new ones.3. I can transpose the keys, speed, etc4. VERY IMPORTANT!!! I find when I'm practicing to a "click" at a very fast pace, sixteenth notes at 120 - 160 plus bpm, I can miss a beat or so and not hear it. When playing along with a sequencer, I am playing along with a piano player who is playing exactly what I'm playing. If I fall behind, YOU HEAR IT, IT'S A MISTAKE. You train your ear to hear the other instrument and you learn HAND/EAR COORDINATION, VERY IMPORTANT!5. I like to play harmony to a scale or sequence of notes, octaves, 3rd, 4ths, fifth's, and so on. Great ear training. To sum up, at the very least buy a drum machine, it's a metronome and so so so much more. If your more advanced or want to achieve more out of being a musician, get a sequencer. Learn the skills, practice, build, then go out and be free. Good luck.
Members acousticbilly Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 We're kind of getting into two different questions here: 1) How useful is a drum machine in your overall quest for musical zen? 2) Specifically, is a drum machine or a metronome better for improving your timing? The OP was more about question #2, and my answer for that is still absolutely metronome. You do not want to train your ear to hear another instrument, you want to train yourself to internalize the beat. If you train yourself to follow another instrument, that is what you will do come showtime - follow the other instruments. Which means that if someone else makes a timing mistake, you can potentially compound the problem. If, on the other hand, you get your internal clock to stay accurate without the presence of any other instruments, you will be better able to keep time even when bandmates go horribly awry. The less sound made by other things when you are practicing tempo accuracy, the better off you'll be. In fact, if you really want to help your timing, try changing the tempo of your metronome so that it only clicks on beats 1 and 3 of each measure. Too easy? try putting it on 2 and 4 then... or if you're feeling particularly crazy, just on the 4th beat. The more minimalist the click, the tougher it is, and the better workout you will get. I was in a band with a guy who would set his metronome to click only on the last 16th note of each measure. Talk about a glutton for punishment... but I gotta say, the dude had a fantastic sense of rhythm/timing...
Members Terje Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 Originally posted by acousticbilly We're kind of getting into two different questions here:1) How useful is a drum machine in your overall quest for musical zen?2) Specifically, is a drum machine or a metronome better for improving your timing?The OP was more about question #2, and my answer for that is still absolutely metronome. You do not want to train your ear to hear another instrument, you want to train yourself to internalize the beat. Exactly!
Members Terje Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 Originally posted by GTM First and foremost, the drum machine is not evil, it's your friend. It will prepare you for reality. It won't. Real drummers in real bands do not sound like this. And the few who actually do (cause there are of course exceptions to this rule) sound awful.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 Originally posted by Terje Which is when I think you should play with a band instead. And that beats everything when it comesto practice. Play with others and get better. First of all, you really need to lay down that crack pipe and never pick it up again. I don't say this to be insulting (although it's inevitable, I suppose, so I apologize in advance), but your views on practice and learning are the silliest, most pathetic pseudo-artiste, B.S. psycho-babble ideas I have ever read. If someone was to make your suggestions and ideas the basis for their practicing/learning, they will undoubtedly end up being illiterate and incompetent in every way imaginable. The things you post have no place in a learning environment; they relate only to the post-learning stages (ie peformance). I sincerely hope that nobody who is trying to learn actually takes any of your advice.Second, playing with a band is 'rehearsal', not practice. Third, metronomes and drum machines are extremely accurate; human beings are not.Fourth, metronomes and drum machines are convenient, portable, and available 24/7. Human beings are not.One problem is that if you do this often enough you will not swing.Not everybody 'swings'. However, those that know how to swing can do so to a drum machine or metronome just fine...and those that don't know can learn how by the proper use of those devices.Play with real people, or with a nome. Don't jam with a machine. Unless you want to sound like one. A drum machine in this usage is nothing more than a glorifed metronome; it serves the same purpose, but achieves it in a slightly different way. While I prefer metronomes to drum machines, there is nothing wrong with using a drum machine to keep the beat. And when practicing, trying to do so with 'real people' keeping time for you is about as practical as high-heeled shoes on an earthworm.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted November 24, 2004 Members Posted November 24, 2004 Originally posted by GTM Dare I say the only thing evil around here is Terje's crap advice again. It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels that way. To sum up, at the very least buy a drum machine, it's a metronome and so so so much more. If your more advanced or want to achieve more out of being a musician, get a sequencer. Learn the skills, practice, build, then go out and be free. Good luck. ^ Excellent advice.
Members Terje Posted November 25, 2004 Members Posted November 25, 2004 Originally posted by Auggie Doggie First of all, you really need to lay down that crack pipe and never pick it up again. I don't say this to be insulting (although it's inevitable, I suppose, so I apologize in advance), but your views on practice and learning are the silliest, most pathetic pseudo-artiste, B.S. psycho-babble ideas I have ever read. Whatever man... A drum machine in this usage is nothing more than a glorifed metronome; it serves the same purpose, but achieves it in a slightly different way. Not quite. While I prefer metronomes to drum machines, there is nothing wrong with using a drum machine to keep the beat. I still say a nome is better cause it doesn't give you anything more than just a beat. If tempo and time keeping is what you want to practice then use a nome. What's wrong with that idea really? Why do you have to be so mad about it? And when practicing, trying to do so with 'real people' keeping time for you is about as practical as high-heeled shoes on an earthworm. Playing with real people will teach you another skill, and that is to make the music work even though it's not always perfect. Do both. But if you have to choose, play with other people.
Members Bajazz Posted November 25, 2004 Members Posted November 25, 2004 I think it's evil One of these days someone will make piano sounds from out from a guitar. OK, a metronome and a drum machine, seq etc. is devices that is stupid, but not evil. They are genious when it comes to keeping rythm, but mostly they will not make things very interesting. They are great for practicing, but they are boring party companions. Hey! That sounds like the most drummers!! Seriosly, if you get caught up in a trap of being a robotic player cause you use a electro-mechanical device, I think you already had big problems long before. You can keep steady rythm and still be good. I studied with a guy who was a awesome drummer at age 17. Once playing in studio we had to turn off the click track for about a minute in his headphones. When we switched on he was right on! Perfect! And man, he could swing! About practising with the band, good luck! ("Hey, can you come over for 1/2 hour, I gotta nail 'Smoke on the water'. Start at 48 bpm and then we increase gradually to 66 bpm. I don't care if you'ra whatching Letterman, I have the inspiration now, goddammitt!!!")
Members Terje Posted November 25, 2004 Members Posted November 25, 2004 Originally posted by Bajazz About practising with the band, good luck! Playing with a band, with other people, is the best practice you can get. As far as robotic... I'm not against good time keeping. By akll means, use a nome and practice with it. I do that too. Maybe not as much as I should right now but I've been playing percussion, latin music mainly, and I know what a valuable tool a nome is. I've also practiced with different sequencers and drum machines and play-a-long recordings. All of these have their value but I'm beginning to think that it's fairly limited. And in the case of learning how to better keep time I think a drum machine is just plain silly, cause it'll do more than just keep time, which gives you false security. So, if you have a drum machine, do as some have already suggested, set it so it just gives you a click or something. Having it play a cool groove does not increase your ability to keep time as much as practicing to just a click. That's why I'm saying that a nome is better than
Members RJpilot Posted November 26, 2004 Members Posted November 26, 2004 A metronome can't help you learn to play in 6/8 and other time sigs as well as drum machine
Members Terje Posted November 26, 2004 Members Posted November 26, 2004 Originally posted by RJpilot A metronome can't help you learn to play in 6/8 and other time sigs as well as drum machine Why not? Most electronic metronomes can be set so they click on the one to any number of time signatures.
Members LosBoleros Posted November 26, 2004 Members Posted November 26, 2004 If you are looking to improve your timing, I recommend a Metrognome. Especially a mechanical one with a swinging arm. That way you can set it at half speed and watch the arm. This forces you to fill in the blanks and you will know if you are off.
Poparad Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros If you are looking to improve your timing, I recommend a Metrognome. Especially a mechanical one with a swinging arm. That way you can set it at half speed and watch the arm. This forces you to fill in the blanks and you will know if you are off. The Korg MA-20 has an LCD arm swinging along with its clicks.
Members acousticbilly Posted November 26, 2004 Members Posted November 26, 2004 Originally posted by RJpilot A metronome can't help you learn to play in 6/8 and other time sigs as well as drum machine Huh? Why?
Members 127.0.0.1 Posted November 27, 2004 Members Posted November 27, 2004 I say the choice is whether you can keep playing and not get bored with a nome. If a drum machine/sequencer inspires you more and makes you play more, then get it. And in the case of learning how to better keep time I think a drum machine is just plain silly, cause it'll do more than just keep time, which gives you false security. Can you elaborate on the "false security" thing? Also... I've done that way too much. And I've played with people who have done it even more. One problem is that if you do this often enough you will not swing. Play with real people, or with a nome. Don't jam with a machine. Unless you want to sound like one. Huh? Why the "if you do this often enough you will not swing."? Elaborate You know, Terje, your opinions will be accepted more if you elaborate these points A metronome can't help you learn to play in 6/8 and other time sigs as well as drum machine My nome can play 6/8 as well as 7/8 and other weird time sigs
Members Terje Posted November 27, 2004 Members Posted November 27, 2004 Originally posted by 127.0.0.1 I say the choice is whether you can keep playing and not get bored with a nome. If a drum machine/sequencer inspires you more and makes you play more, then get it.[//QUOTE] I can see a point in that. Can you elaborate on the "false security" thing? It's pretty simple really. If you want to work on your timing then it's better to work with something that just gives you the pulse. If you play to complete drum groove there will be much more happening than just the pulse, different subdivisions of the beat, and this way you will not have to focus so much on keeping the time. It will not be as helpful. Huh? Why the "if you do this often enough you will not swing."? Elaborate That's my experience. I've played with younger drummers who, unlike the drummer in my band, are excellent time keepers but who, also unlike my drummer, since they have played with machines for so long can't swing or play any kinda of shuffle convincingly. You know, Terje, your opinions will be accepted more if you elaborate these points I'm not so sure. We'll see.
Members LosBoleros Posted November 27, 2004 Members Posted November 27, 2004 I agree with Terje. If you want to improve your timing whether its in 6/8 or in 8/6, A metronogm will will teach you timing better than a machine. Now if you want somthing to fill in when the drummer is not there, that is another thing. Separate the nead to improve from the need to perform. This is where the false sense of security comes in.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted November 27, 2004 Members Posted November 27, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros I agree with Terje. If you want to improve your timing whether its in 6/8 or in 8/6, A metronogm will will teach you timing better than a machine. There isn't a player or device in existence that can handle 8/6 time.
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