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Another take on the Modal debate Part 1


bobmeredith

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Posted

The other post on modes was great, there's a lot of good advice there. I didn't read it all however so excuse me if I repeat some of the things mentioned in that thread.


Q: What is a Mode?

A: It's two extra notes added to a pentatonic scale. NO BIG DEAL!

I always tell my students that if they can't play well with 5 notes then an extra 2 is not going to help much.

They need to develop a good sense of resolution, melody, and phrasing before starting on modes.

It's my view that the extra notes in the modal scales should be used to create different tone colours, rather than to fill in fingering gaps and run up and down the neck.

GUITAR IS A VISUAL INSTRUMENT

*****This is both it's strength and its greatest curse.*****

The biggest problem is that a lot of people are trying to use modes before they are ready.

Not only do they not have the basic theory (keys, pent scales, chordal tones) but a some of these players

HAVEN'T EVEN BOTHERED TO LEARN THE NAMES OF THE NOTES ON THE NECK!

They expect every thing to fall into easy visual finger patterns. Then they wonder why their solos sound like exercises.

I also play Sax. There are no finger patterns on wind instruments.

Wind players have to learn all the notes on their instrument, learn all their scales by note name, (in every key), analyse the chord progression, before they even begin to play.

I guarantee that if guitar players did this to their basic Min & Maj pentatonics and Blues scales, that they would achieve that great quantum leap in creativity that they were expecting modes and other scales to give them.

To sum up:

THE HUMBLE PENTATONIC IS YOUR FRIEND.

Use it wisely Grasshopper, before you venture into the more advanced world of modes.

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Posted

Originally posted by bobmeredith

Q: What is a Mode?


A: It's two extra notes added to a pentatonic scale. NO BIG DEAL!

That's funny. I would never consider it that way. it's more like a pentatonic is a fraction of a whole scale.

 

As far as modes go, if you play C major scale over C major chord, it's ionian. If you play C major scale over Dm chord, it's dorian. If you play C major scale over Em chord, it's phrygian. The only thing that changes is your tonic as a point of reference. In the key of C, the dorian modes 1,3 and 5 are D,F and A respectively. In the key of C, the phrygian modes 1,3 and 5 are E,G and B respectively. Modes are a language of diagnosise for improvisation. Using the modes as a point of reference, you can select the proper notes for a melody. You can mix up the tention and resolution for pleasing results. If your melodies have alot of 1,3 and 5, then you will be very harmonious. If you use alot of 2,4and 6, you will add alot of tention. This is the most basic level of modal understanding. It is the building blocks for future advancement of the modes. If you canot transpose the same melody into all the modes of a given key, then you are not ready for the next step.

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Posted

I agree with you 100% The trouble with the conventional teaching approach is the rock players have trouble putting it to use and often don't integrate it with the scales and approach that they are allready using.

I teach modes as an extension of the basic rock scales rather than a whole separate system requiring a higher level of theory.

This is more a Jazz/Fusion players approach.

I've got a few more posts coming up; hold on for a while and I think you'll see where I'm heading.

Posted

Originally posted by LosBoleros

That's funny. I would never consider it that way. it's more like a pentatonic is a fraction of a whole scale.

 

 

This is my belief as well. After all, the harmony we use is all from the 7 note scales, not from pentatonics. You can also play multiple pentatonics within one key, and multiple types of pentatonics, and still sound like you're inside the one key. To me, pentatonics are just a way (an effective way) to play select notes from a larger scale.

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Posted

This is just a approach I use for players that come to me with a few basic scales.

Traditionally beginner guitar players still seem to think in pentatonic terms, at least the ones that I see do anyway.

A lot of people are scared of theory and are worried that they may apear foolish if they dont grasp it straight away.

Gives them a wider variety of sounds without frightening them off.

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Posted
Originally posted by Poparad



This is my belief as well. After all, the harmony we use is all from the 7 note scales, not from pentatonics. You can also play multiple pentatonics within one key, and multiple types of pentatonics, and still sound like you're inside the one key. To me, pentatonics are just a way (an effective way) to play select notes from a larger scale.




I agree as well. :D

While I understand the difficulty in making certain concepts palatable to less experienced students, in cases like this, I'd start from the beginning and work up to the matter at hand.

Pentatonics are an extraction from something much larger; it only makes sense that the bigger picture be understood before exploring the tangents.

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Posted

Originally posted by cgoodson

Isn't it true that every key has six pentatonic scales in it? Three majors and three minors?

 

 

That's true.. If you take all three minor scales and look which notes are equal you get the minor pentatonic (or the major pentatonic if you play the same game with the three major modes).

 

Nils

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Posted
Originally posted by cgoodson

Isn't it true that every key has six pentatonic scales in it? Three majors and three minors?

Actually the by the definition of a scale, any group of notes can be considered a scale. By the definition of pentatonic, any five notes can be considered a pentatonic. Frankly I refuse to name any additional scales than the ones already accepted. At some point, I think you need to figure out what key you are in and start to select the notes for the situation of the moment. Stop relying on finger patterns. Of course, that is just my take on that.:D

Posted

Originally posted by cgoodson

Isn't it true that every key has six pentatonic scales in it? Three majors and three minors?

 

 

For major pentatonics, start on the 1st, 4th, or 5th scale degree. In the key of C major, that would be C major pentatonic, F major pentatonic, and G major pentatonic. These correspond to the three major chords in the key of C.

 

The minor pentatonics are all the relative minors of those major pentatonics above. They can be played from the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th degrees. In the key of C major that would be D minor pentatonic, E minor pentatonic, and A minor pentatonic. These also correspond with the three minor chords in the key of C.

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Posted

Originally posted by Singingax



Auggie Doggie suggested learning the '12 notes' in the thread on modes.


He has yet to explain what he means by that.


It's kind of hard to 'LEARN THE NAMES OF THE NOTES ON THE NECK!' when the present naming scheme uses 7 letters and has you playing the name the note game to name some of the notes on the fretboard.


Just look at a circle of fifths with the 7 letter tone naming scheme written on it.


Or just try naming 'all the notes' in the chromatic scale using the 7 letter tone naming scheme.


And any schematic of the fretboard with the 'notes' written out, using the 7 letter tone naming scheme, which yeilds the same mess.

What the hell are you talking about? Learning where all the notes are is extremely important to musician ship. I think that 99 % of the people reading this post know where all the notes are on the neck, the only difference is how long it takes them to find them. If too long, then you can't really use it in real time. Knowing where the notes are is helpfull to knowing where the scales are all over the neck.

 

Yes all 12 tones have names and some tones have more than one name ( A# & Bb) but that has nothing to do with this thread. Do you have anything to say that pertains to modes???

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Posted

Axe -

thank you for your input

To facilitate the various discussions, your recent comments have been moved to the "singingax Lounge" to allow you to express your views on the naming/notation issues that concern you

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