Members guitguy26 Posted April 29, 2005 Members Posted April 29, 2005 When I pick normally, I just pick by pivoting my wrist. At an average tempo, I can pick up to 16th-notes. If I want to pick any faster, however, my technique changes: I kind of "shake" my whole forearm from the elbow, keeping my wrist relaxed. So, it's kind of a combination of forearm shaking, with my hand being shaken at the wrist in turn, to do the fast picking. At a moderate tempo I can easily pick 32nd-notes, even 64th-notes (although only for a very short period of time). I'm just wondering if this is the "right" technique. Are there players that do tremolo picking with just wrist movement alone, or is the technique done in the way I do it? Can a player generate enough speed with just wrist movement or do you need to have the whole forearm moving?
Members Little Dreamer Posted April 29, 2005 Members Posted April 29, 2005 Stick with your pivoting the wrist technique. It takes countless hours of practice to get it up to really fast speeds, but it's the only way to go. Moving your whole arm is okay for certain things, like tremelo picking where you're mostly staying on a single string, but it's not at all practical for more complex stuff.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted April 30, 2005 Members Posted April 30, 2005 Originally posted by Little Dreamer Stick with your pivoting the wrist technique. It takes countless hours of practice to get it up to really fast speeds, but it's the only way to go. Moving your whole arm is okay for certain things, like tremelo picking where you're mostly staying on a single string, but it's not at all practical for more complex stuff. Agreed. As for being able to generate ample speed with the wrist for tremolo picking, yes, wrist-based picking is quite sufficient. On a typical day, and after thoroughly warming up, I can tremolo pick (a single note, not a legitimate note sequence..after all, I'm only human! ) 16ths at around 240-250 bpm...using nothing but wrist motion.
Members buddastrat Posted May 2, 2005 Members Posted May 2, 2005 Crap. that's ridiculously fast bro'. Watching the Petrucci video he's really sweatin' at 210 or roundabout. His arm starts moving too. Mine does as well on a good day I'm lucky if I can do 16ths 200 bpm. It seems Paul Gilbert is a bit slower, but I have no real way of comparing. On his 2nd video he talks about how when you trem pick on one string, that is your limit and sequences will always be slower (of course note sequences will be!), but he also implies that your trem won't ever improve. how do you increase that? I work at all downs, or all ups and alternating. But my trem picking never can really break that 200 bpm thing. Mental block.?
Members Metal|Boy Posted May 2, 2005 Members Posted May 2, 2005 How fast do you downpick on one string? I can do like 8ths at 120-130bmp and I'm playing for about 9 months. Is that slow? I never measured my trem picking though but it is probably around 16ths at 140 bmp.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted May 2, 2005 Members Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by buddastrat Crap. that's ridiculously fast bro'. Nah...when just repeating a single note over and over like that, it's not too tough. Watching the Petrucci video he's really sweatin' at 210 or roundabout. His arm starts moving too. Mine does as well on a good day I'm lucky if I can do 16ths 200 bpm. Well, he's actually playing things that involve his fret hand; remember, my example applies only to tremolo picking one note. It seems Paul Gilbert is a bit slower, but I have no real way of comparing. On his 2nd video he talks about how when you trem pick on one string, that is your limit and sequences will always be slower (of course note sequences will be!), but he also implies that your trem won't ever improve. Hmmm...I infer that to mean that whatever your current maximum tremolo speed is, such is the upper limit to your overall speed when playing normal lines. But tremolo speed CAN be improved upon, just like anything else. how do you increase that? I work at all downs, or all ups and alternating. But my trem picking never can really break that 200 bpm thing. Mental block.? There are many ways to increase speed...some are physical, and some are mental. I've done a ~15 part 'speed' series in here over the last year or so, and the first one is a tremolo exercise designed to speed up your picking. The thread can be found via search (just look for 'speed' in the title and my username as the author), but the pdf file became corrupt over time and it had to uploaded to another thread (which I don't have a link for at the moment).
Members buddastrat Posted May 3, 2005 Members Posted May 3, 2005 Hey Auggie, I've seen and tried some of those excercises. It's very good stuff. But I'm totally talking about specific things to increase the trem pick. On the Petrucci vid. He's only doing the usual four finger (beginner chromatic thing). But at his top speed he only trem picks on the one note for a while, and he's definitely at his limit. I think he made it to 212 bpm for a brief moment. And he uses quite a bit of arm picking at that speed. I notice Vinnie Moore does a lot of arm picking too. I'm left handed and play with my strong hand on the board. My left can always keep up with whatever my right could muster up. In other words, my trem picking tops out around 200 (16th's)maybe 210 if I'm really warm. My left hand has no problem doing those four finger chromatics up and down the string at 200 in sync with my right hand trem picking at that speed cleanly.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted May 3, 2005 Members Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by buddastrat Hey Auggie, I've seen and tried some of those excercises. It's very good stuff. But I'm totally talking about specific things to increase the trem pick. There's a certain neurological barrier that can't be broken, and it (of course) varies from player to player. Aside from that, it's just a matter of efficient motions. Using a heavy, pointed pick helps too, since less material comes in contact with the string, yielding a quicker attack/release time. Moving up a gauge in strings doesn't hurt, either. The less tension you build up while playing, the faster you're able to go, which is why arm movement is something I avoid--it causes a lot of tension. My left hand has no problem doing those four finger chromatics up and down the string at 200 in sync with my right hand trem picking at that speed cleanly. Well, if you're able to keep your hands in sync playing 16ths at 200, I would venture to say that speed is not a problem for you!
Members GWS5987 Posted May 5, 2005 Members Posted May 5, 2005 Hello Auggie, Would you be so kind as to describe the way you teach/hold the pick. I see so many variations ... and so I keep trying so many variations. Do you have a picture? Thanks, George
Members Auggie Doggie Posted May 6, 2005 Members Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by GWS5987 Hello Auggie, Would you be so kind as to describe the way you teach/hold the pick. I see so many variations ... and so I keep trying so many variations. Do you have a picture? Thanks, George I don't have any picking pics, but my picking posture looks (stress LOOKS ) similar to Eric Johnson's. I keep the heel of my hand lightly resting on the bridge, my fingers in a loose fist, and grip the pick between the 'thumbprint' area of my thumb and the side of my index finger. I keep the surface of the pick as close to parallel with the strings as I can, and I generate all movement from the wrist (no arm movement, and no finger/thumb movement). I don't know if that's at all helpful, but I tried.
Members GWS5987 Posted May 6, 2005 Members Posted May 6, 2005 Hello Auggie, Thanks for responding. I've always angled my pick down a bit. I'm now trying more parallel. Also, I've always anchored my pinky. So I've been trying it as you described. A question or two if I may. Q1: When you're playing with the heel of your hand lightly resting on the bridge, and say your doing a scale from low E to high E, then does the heel of your hand stay primarily in one place on the bridge, or does it slide up and down on the bridge? (That might not make sence. Here's what's happening as I try this new method: If I rest my hand up near the low E, and don't slide it down, then as I'm picking down to the lower strings, my pick is moving in closer to the bridge. Conversly, if I let the heel of my hand slide up and down on the bridge, my pick stays more or less at the same location on each string. I'm just curious as to how you deal with this.) Q2: Regarding how you hold your pick. Is the point of the pick more or less pointing in the same direction as the end of your index finger, or is your finger more curled in (which I guess would place the pick more like 90 degrees from the end of your finger)? Sorry for the dumb ass questions, but I do appreciate your wise discussions on this thread. George
Members TheBlueGuy Posted May 6, 2005 Members Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by Auggie Doggie I don't have any picking pics, but my picking posture looks (stress LOOKS ) similar to Eric Johnson's. I copied Eric's picking from an instructional video when I first started and it totally stuffed my playing. I had so much extra movement going from his "bounce" technique and whatever else that I really suffered with speed and accuracy. I can't argue that it works well for him, but he's a freak. Oh, and by the way, GWS5987, I rest my right hand on my pinky too, as do a fair few other players, including Satch. I heard Paul Gilbert describe his picking motion once as being "like scratching a dog" with the tip of the pick.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted May 6, 2005 Members Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by GWS5987 Q1: When you're playing with the heel of your hand lightly resting on the bridge, and say your doing a scale from low E to high E, then does the heel of your hand stay primarily in one place on the bridge, or does it slide up and down on the bridge? It moves a little across the bridge; it's not planted or anchored, just lightly resting. I have really big hands, so I don't have to move it much. Q2: Regarding how you hold your pick. Is the point of the pick more or less pointing in the same direction as the end of your index finger, or is your finger more curled in (which I guess would place the pick more like 90 degrees from the end of your finger)? My index finger is curled in, so the pick is at about a 75-80 degree angle from it.
Members Auggie Doggie Posted May 6, 2005 Members Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by TheBlueGuy I copied Eric's picking from an instructional video when I first started and it totally stuffed my playing. I had so much extra movement going from his "bounce" technique and whatever else that I really suffered with speed and accuracy. I can't argue that it works well for him, but he's a freak. Well, I didn't 'copy' his posture OR his technique; it's something I realized when I watched a video of his. The similarities end with the posture.
Members GWS5987 Posted May 6, 2005 Members Posted May 6, 2005 Thank you for your input Auggie. Hello Blueguy, The trouble for me in resting my little finger is the fact that my hands are so damn small. When I get up to the A and E strings my pinky is off the guitar body and I've lost that achor. I'm going to give the Auggie method a good try. Take care, George
Members TheBlueGuy Posted May 7, 2005 Members Posted May 7, 2005 Originally posted by GWS5987 Hello Blueguy, The trouble for me in resting my little finger is the fact that my hands are so damn small. When I get up to the A and E strings my pinky is off the guitar body and I've lost that achor. I'm going to give the Auggie method a good try. Take care, George George, fair enough. My hands are also pretty darn small. I find that I'm often resting my finger(s) on the top strings (high E and B) when it comes to playing on the bottom strings. It doesn't seem to be a problem. I don't like resting my hand on the bridge for a couple of reasons: 1. I often play with a floating trem and it would go out of tune slightly; 2. I like to spread my fingers out and find I have to curl them in more when I'm resting on the bridge. But hey, you go for whatever feels best for you.
Members gtrmaestro Posted May 7, 2005 Members Posted May 7, 2005 I believe there is no set in stone correct technique. Vinnie Moore seems to have a lot of forearm movement, Steve Morse anchors his pinky both of which have been said are no-no's. If you watch Frank Gambale he used an economy/sweep picking technique. Joe Pass only changes string with a downstroke no matter what preceeded it. While I firmly believe that alternate picking MUST be in your arsanal, I rarely use it exclusivley in a solo. I usually use a combo of pick and fingers as Danny Gatton did, and I can BURN up a fretboard! Pick angle is a whole other story, if I'm playing electric I angle my pick with my thumb behind the pick and my index finger forward. It kind of looks like I'm pointing at the string if your watching. If it's acoustic I play flat against the string, it really gives you a boldness in your attack and increased your overall unamplified volume. Hope that helps.
Members CoBfan Posted May 11, 2005 Members Posted May 11, 2005 Originally posted by GWS5987 In furtherance of right hand picking
Members GWS5987 Posted May 22, 2005 Members Posted May 22, 2005 A final update on switching to the "Benson" method for the right hand. For the last three weekends, I have used this method exclusively, and here's how it
Members buddastrat Posted May 23, 2005 Members Posted May 23, 2005 That articles has been the topic of many discussions over the years. My first guitar teacher used to try and get me to hold it like that. There are downsides to it. I don't like the tone at all. It's a slicing, thin tone because the pick is at such an angle. Not so bad on clean tones, but horribly thin on dirty ones. Also, it doesn't make hybrid picking so easy as your hand is in the wrong position for fingerpicking. finally, the technique of muting every single string you're not playing is impossible. Most guys who use this technique sound very sloppy on distorted tones. Everything rings together becuase your hand is coming up from the ground and the palm cannot mute the unwanted string noise. I played with the Benson style for many years, but could never do those rock sounds because of the bent wrist. Paul Gilbert used to do a variation on it, and he switched to "normal" as well.
Members CoBfan Posted May 23, 2005 Members Posted May 23, 2005 I tried it for a week, but I can't the rocksounds sound as good, and I have the thin tone aswell. I'm going back:)
Members Auggie Doggie Posted May 23, 2005 Members Posted May 23, 2005 Originally posted by gtrmaestro I believe there is no set in stone correct technique. Vinnie Moore seems to have a lot of forearm movement, ...and has had numerous run-ins with tendinitis and other RSI's. Which, of course, is not to say that his playing isn't incredible. Steve Morse anchors his pinky both of which have been said are no-no's. ...but in his case it makes sense because he's a lefty that plays righty, and needed the extra control that his genetics preclude him from having.
Members Santuzzo Posted May 24, 2005 Members Posted May 24, 2005 Originally posted by Auggie Doggie ...but in his case it makes sense because he's a lefty that plays righty, and needed the extra control that his genetics preclude him from having. Vinnie is a lefty, too. BTW. I read that Vinnie Moore never had problems with his right hand....I'd be curious to know how you know about his many RSI and tendonitis issues I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but I also pick from the elbow (I'm a lefty playing righty, too, BTW) because I never got the same speed out of my wrist, no matter how much I practiced..... I tried speeding up my picking from the wrist for like 15 years or so ..... then about one year ago I changed to elbow picking, and all of a sudden I got so much faster with my picking (I'm still working hard on it, it's still not very fast, but much faster than what my wrist picking would be)...... Picking from the elbow doesn't necessarily mean that one needs to tense up, I still concentrate on keeping my arm relaxed .... Have you ever seen Greg Howe playing ? His picking is very fast, and he also picks from the elbow (at least for the fast picking stuff)....so it really can't be all wrong.....you can't argue with success ..... What I'm trying to say (finally...the BOTTOM LINE;) ) is : everybody should use the picking motion/technique that works for them....for person A wrist picking might yield the best results, person B might find elbow picking to work the best, while person C plays best when picking from the fingers (thumb-index movement....I think this is sometimes called 'circular picking'). Any other opinions.....???? Does anybody agree ?????? Lars
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