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Soloing in "Chain of Fools"?


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Posted

Oops, you may be wondering if I'm going to open a thread every time I need to figure out how to do a solo in a particular song like I did for Cantaloupe and now this.. Anyway.

 

We do a cover of this song by Aretha Franklin, which is all in one chord, C7. We have a section where we chain up some solos, and we use it to present the members of the band. Being it a few bars only, I get away with just C minor pentatonic, and that's just fine. Problem is I'm getting bored of that (surely the other musicians are even more tired of that..) and I would like to combine that scale with some other(s).

 

Now my problem is with the 3rd of this scales. In this kind of song you normally play melodies in Cm7 over a C7 (mixolydian or major 3rd) harmony. Sometimes I've tried a major 3rd instead, and it sounds wrong to me, maybe it's just because I'm not used to it??

 

So my question is, if I wanted to choose a 7-degree C scale (should I call that diatonic?) to use in my solo, should I think major 3rd (mixolydian, lydian dominant) or should I think minor third (natural minor, dorian)?

 

Thanks a lot for any comments!

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Posted

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of theory, so I wont get into that. I started playing over 35 yrs. ago, attended the Berklee College of Music late 70's-early 80's (dropped out.) I mention this because I have a point- I started THINKING everytime I soloed. Don't THINK, just PLAY. If it feels/sounds right, then good.

 

Being this is a soul tune, I personally wouldn't get too modal on the solos- that could be why it may sound "wrong". Maybe you can try some of the riffs you're playing backwards, or play more staccato, or play less notes. I'm still amazed by players I admire who pretty much play a pentatonic scale; but it's *how* they use them notes. Often, it's not WHAT you play, but the notes you DON'T. I've of the "less is more" school, but lately I've been listening to shredders playing at the speed of light; fun to get them fingers moving, lol.

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Posted

mix up some am pentatonics to accent the major feel, and go to cm pents to build more tension... try it.. its simple, and can bring some drama over a 7th chord...

stevie ray and hendrix both did this quite a bit.. im sure itll open your ears up to new ideas...

 

dont hang out on the maj3 of c7... its not really right for that song... its not a C7 the way you'd play it in jazz...

 

you cant really "think" wehern playing soul music without sounding contrived....

 

 

id suggest startin Am pent, build some tension with Cm pentatonic, and have the after sex smoke back in Am pents.. at least for what you are describing

 

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Posted

Chaps,

 

Thank you so much for your suggestions. I will be trying those on our next rehearsal this week.

 

Very useful, thank you!

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Posted

eh i'm trying to improve my own theory knowledge lately. So my question is if the Song is in C why would you use Cm to solo instead of Am ?? ??

 

:confused:

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Posted

I find it a bit confusing but I'll try to explain what I know about this.

 

Many soul and R&B songs use chords which are ALL major with a minor seventh.

 

These chords are normally called dominant because of the function they usually have, that is as V7 in either major or minor harmonies.

 

However, in these songs, these chords are not functioning as dominants. They are used to provide a certain sound or mood. I've seen them called non-functional dominants.

 

As a consequence, it's not often useful to analyze harmony in soul or R&B purely with the "tools" of jazz.

 

That said, another particular characteristic of these songs is the use of minor melody over major harmony. The purpose of this is again to create a unique sound. And it works indeed, at least to me, these songs sound rough if you compare to the "nice" and smooth harmonies used in jazz standards.

 

These dominant 7th chords used to "build" these songs generally don't belong to one scale (they don't come from harmonizing the major, natural minor or harmonic minor scales as you would expect in jazz or pop). However, as the chord which function is tonic, called "I", is a dominant 7th chord, it is common sense to think of the entire tune or progression as being in "I mixolydian". This is even though the other chords in the progression wouldn't fit in a mixolydian scale. So the correct way of writing the part for one of these songs which tonic is C7 is with one flat key signature (Bb), which in this case indicates C mixolydian and not F or Dm. This is especially true for writing the harmony. As for writing the melodies, I normally use a mixolydian key signature just the same, and alter the third (remember, minor melody) whenever I use it. That way I know the harmony is major, even if I don't really need to know (as the trumpeter I am), I often like to know ;) I'm not sure if this is the "right" way of writing a pure melody in this context, it may well be nicer to put 3 flats (Cm) instead in the key signature, but I prefer the former by a lot.

 

Coming back to the particular tune I was talking about. It has one chord, the tonic "I" which is a dominant (non-functional) to provide a soul sound (how else would you find a DOMINANT as a "I"!!). As for the key it is in, you would probably say it's in C mixolydian. Mixolydian is major but only in the sense that it has a major 3rd (and not in the sense that it's identical to C major, for it's key signature actually has one extra flat).

 

So in this song you would generally use Eb (tone this time) not E in melodies, again to provide a soul sound. And that's as far I got before asking in this thread. Now I've gained some knowledge about how to "move" to a slightly different sound without compromising the soul mood, and I really want to try!

 

I hope this makes sense. Your corrections are very much welcome and appreciated!

 

Cheers,

 

Alex

 

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Posted

So in short: minor over major is used to provide a "soul" sound, but beware that major in this context is not major as in jazz, for a start the 7th is already minor so it's not major but mixolydian.

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Posted

I have just realized that A minor pentatonic can be thought as a scale I already knew as C major pentatonic.

 

If you alternate both scales, you get all the tones in a mixolydian scale plus a minor 3rd, or in other words, all the tones in a dorian scale plus a major 3rd. (Although you have already advised not to go diatonic on this one, so just out of curiosity.)

 

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Posted

hey alez....I'd check back with your band to make sure they are indeed playing a C7, and not a minor 7. Chain of fools is nearly always a simple minor 7 vamp,(not to say you couldn't do it otherwise) and if this is the case it might go along way to explaining why the Maj 3rd sounds wierd to you. If it is a Dom 7, the 3rd should sound just fine.

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Posted

Has your singer conciously worked out the new melody that is nessessary fit with the new harmony? (Dom7) If not, the song is still going to sound like it's minor, and the guitar player is not hearing the problem.

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Posted

Ooops!! Thank you Jefe, I suspect we are playing whatever the original is :eek: That would explain why a major 3rd sounds so wrong, just as you pointed out :( I'll check that, I wonder why I thought it was C7?

 

Thanks!

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Posted

I just listened to the original recording again, and the first full chord the guitar player plays IS clearly a C7.............I don't have time now, but I'll listen again later. I still think it's minor in the body of the song. The vocal harmonies favor the b3.

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