Members Walters9515 Posted September 27, 2005 Members Share Posted September 27, 2005 What is a Counter Melody? How do you makes Counter Melodies? If i have a lead melody line how do i make multiple counter melodies that offset it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 28, 2005 Which composers used alot of counter melodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 29, 2005 Members Share Posted September 29, 2005 Sounds like you about ready to embark on an exploration of the roots of Western harmony. counterpoint has been sort of an evolutionary process from plainsong/chant (melody, essentially wthout harmony), through simple organum (harmony, basically without harmonic motion), through to counterpoint. There is an entire body of technique built up around this...taking a melody, and forming other "singable" melodies around it to create harmony with lots of interesting harmonic motion...this was, in many ways, the beginning of our current harmonic lexicon. These days, esp in popular music, guys tend to learn about the "tail end" of the system (thinking in terms of melody and a sort of monolithic harmony sitting below it which is manipulates AS harmonic function) and don't get a chance to study the rudiments from which that system came. I would suggest a basic class in "traditional" music theory at maybe a local university (these generally start OPPOSITE the way popular music guys get into it...you geerall learn 4 part choral harmony construction and start with...."harmonize this cantus firmus (melody)" as opposed to the modern "what (scales, etc) can I use to construct a melody over this harmony" It's quite a trip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 29, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 29, 2005 thanks for the information How would counterpoint give me counter melodies? those are two different things i thought Counterpoint and counter melodies should be different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 29, 2005 Members Share Posted September 29, 2005 you are most welcome, contrapunctual construction (ie counterpoint) is the process of creating and larger context counter melodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 29, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 29, 2005 But i thought that was Polyphonic 4 or more independent Lead melodies Counter Melodies are Offsetted from the Lead melody line its not 2 lead melodies then that would be Polyphonic to have 2 lead melodies going on do you know what i mean the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 29, 2005 Members Share Posted September 29, 2005 Originally posted by Walters9515 But i thought that was Polyphonic 4 or more independent Lead melodies I assume you are talking 4 part choral harmony? (hint : they aren't really "independent, they are actually...interdependent, which is where much of the challenge, beauty and cleverness can be seen) Choral harmony may consist of counterpoint, organum, plaingsong...or a mix of constructions (it is a venue FOR use of this body of techniques) it depends, again it's important not to look at just the "tail" end, but the whole evolution through plainsong/chant, simple organum, etc typically, even there you have a cantus firmus and subordinate melodies from there (how interesting they can be, if they are subject to the theme, etc can vary depending on form and cleverness of construction) Counter Melodies are Offsetted from the Lead melody line its not 2 lead melodies then that would be Polyphonic to have 2 lead melodies going on do you know what i mean the difference? You are thinking more of a harmonized melody (the lines are moving parallel), there is no counter melody - this sort of harmonic construction is "organum" and is/was an intermediate step in harmonic evolution vbetween plainsong/chant and full counterpoint A basic university class in music theory will clear this up -- sometimes it's easier to go from the beginning and work through it than start from the end and work back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chao Posted September 29, 2005 Members Share Posted September 29, 2005 Originally posted by MorePaul A basic university class in music theory will clear this up -- sometimes it's easier to go from the beginning and work through it than start from the end and work back Not going to happen anytime soon. The Walters persona admantly refuses to purchase books or take classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Interesting coice of terms in "person" -- is Walters not really a fully forthright individual, but instead an aspect of someone operating in less-than good faith? His questions sem to express an interest in "classial" (or more accurately, I suppose "traditional Western") compositionbut seem a bit here and there. I think some exposure to the rudiments would help him a long way in getting the core concepts n which he could build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Whats the difference between counter melody VS polyphonic melodies? When i listen to classical Symphonys there is a Lead Melody line the background rhythm quartet or some type of rhythm parts ok this is wear it gets tricky : 1.) Counter melody part or 2.) Polyphonic melodies parts or 3.) Another Background Effect not really a melody but so type of background effect #3.) What is the Label for this type of background effects i hear flutes or trombones or clarnets sometimes doing background effects not really melodies but not really word painting but in the same ball park as word painting can someone please tell me the label or name of this type of effects its not really melodies but effects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Originally posted by Walters9515 Whats the difference between counter melody VS polyphonic melodies? Brent ; Well, melodies themselves aren't polyphonic, they are monophonic in nature a counter melody is a TYPE of polyphonic construction in that to have a countermelody you have a a primary melody to be COUNTER to (without a primary melody, a counter melody would just be, a plain old melody) sort of like co-host, it implies there's another host to be cooperative with (or adversarial to if you are Regis ) One thing to keep in mind as you listen to this type of music is that the roles are often interlocking and multifaceted -- a statement, when looked at "horizontally" (across time) can be melodic, but when looked at vertically (a single time-slice across voices) may also be performing harmonic function. I believe you may be listening with an ear trained in a different tradition and so may be actually missing a lot of what is going on. It sounds as though you are coming from a popular music background (and there is certainly nothing wrong with that). The problem here is that you are looking at just terms and structures and definitions in isolation as opposed to really getting a core understanding for the underlying philosophy and approach to the music. Once again, I am going to STRONGLY suggest a basic music theory course and possibly a music appreciation course at your university (typically, you do NOT have to be a full-time enrolled student for many of these classes - auditing should be just fine, so the bar is even lower) It really will help you out as it will allow you to avoid athe confusion you are now facing, allow you to discuss the things with the proper terminology (helps in basic communication), and get a true understanding that will make many of these issues clear. It's an area of music that builds on itself and strong fundamentals are really key to understanding the entire system and, from there, the elements within that system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Thanks for the information I know primary lead melody is monophonic When you add a counter melody its a counter part buts its relative or has a relationship Polyphonic melodies are way different than the Lead monophonic melody its 4 monophonic melodies with different phrases A counter melody is offset from the lead melody which is monophonic from the voice leading Vectical or horzionictal which ever u choice to make a counter melody A background Word painting melody is raw material in the key center its a background effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 you should read his threads in the recording forum... sometimes, and I'm not joking, I'll see statements like "any username starting with walters shall be deleted immediately" in the Guidelines section of new forums I visit This guy is everywhere on the internet... got nothin but free time I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 whatever thats what a forum is for to exchange ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 to be completely honest, this guy doesn't sound like the same guy... the guy from the recording forum spoke horrible english and just went around in circles... did you have a change of heart or what man? you used to be a complete and utter troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=935378 try that thread out for classic walters action... but to be fair, he does seem to have changed his act a bit, so I'll shut up, but be warned! (there are toooons more threads just like that, he had us all scratching our heads for a couple days) and the exchange of information is one thing, but what you were doing on that thread is something completely different than wanting information, and you know it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 FWAxeIbanez why don't u worry about your own LIFE man and stop trolling in my thread understand i don't go you businessso just stay away what your problem with this Walters thing ?maybe get a life and stop acting like a troll posting trashNot here to fight but to exchange music theory ideas stop trolling my thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FWAxeIbanez Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 haha, I'm just giving well meaning people a heads up... but like I said before, you seem to be genuine this time, I thought your username was strictly for trolling, but I guess you're getting more serious... look how many people tried to help you in the recording forums! just trying to save some potential wasted time is all... that being said, I'm not gonna highjack a serious thread with good intentions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chao Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Originally posted by Walters9515 so just stay away what your problem with this Walters thing ?Our problem with the "Walters" thing is that the assumed persona refuses to take basic classes, buy introductory books, and yet continues to either ask complicated questions well beyond its expertise, hideously dumb questions that could be answered by any search engine, or simply makes stuff up out of the blue to get people to bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Originally posted by Walters9515 Thanks for the information I know primary lead melody is monophonic Excellent! of course, ALL melodies are really monophonic, it's in combination (ie when you have poly When you add a counter melody its a counter part buts its relative or has a relationship of course, if it had no relationship, it wouldn't really be "counter" - counter is a descriptive term for a relationship Polyphonic melodies are way different than the Lead monophonic melody its 4 monophonic melodies with different phrases Well, again melodies aren't themselves ployphonic...the RELATIONSHIP between/among melodies is polyphonic (as in "multiply voiced") Also, don't get stuck on 4 part, polyphony certainly doesn't have to be 4 part A counter melody is offset from the lead melody which is monophonic from the voice leading Vectical or horzionictal which ever u choice to make a counter melody hmm, I don't really find this to make a lot of senseto be honest as you are asking, it's probably not best to assume too much until you get a solid foundation, strong fundamentals will really help you A background Word painting melody is raw material in the key center its a background effect While nicely descriptive, I think we are straying from the core subject matter here and, honestl, will serve o confuse you as you are just starting to explore this area of construction Please be careful, you seem to be very "term centric" and, while understanding of the terms is a noble effort and certainly worthwhile - whithout a real sense of the concepts they describe, isolated terms will simply be confusing It really is a matter of building from the very basics Again, I strongly urge you to check out some basic theory and appreciation classes as I think that will give you the basic tools to understand this (the wonderful thing about classes is that they are INTERACTIVE and you can ask questions in real-time, have the instructor show you on piano, etc - check your homework, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Thanks for the information What is Word painting? What are background melodies? not polyphonic or counter melodies just background melodies Which composers used alot of word painting and background melodies please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 You are most welocme to be honest Brent, I wouldn't even worry about that in your current situation - you are going to wind up with a collection of disconnected terms and some historical examples without a real sense for the philosophy and context of various tools of musical contruction and expression. seriously, strong fundamentals are really going to help you and help you understand this far far more than a catalog of stylistic terms once again, SEEK AN INSTRUCTION PROGRAM - it will help you get an overall view that haphazard sampling of "buzzwords" simply won't give you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 Well im trying to write some word painting and background melodies for my songs how can i start? and how do i do this?can you help with th approch of word painting melodies? or background melodies can you please give me examples?which composers i can listen to please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted September 30, 2005 Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 That, my friend, may be precisely the problem (or a reflection thereof). You are looking to employ techniques and devices before you really know what they are, or their context or the underlying "physics" behind them. Ultimately, it will be a frustrating experience. Once again, please seek an instruction course or private instruction - it will give you the foundation you need to employ these things effectively and expressively. othwise, all you have is an arbitrary soup of unrelated terms an vague notions It's sort of like saysing"I want to skydive!" without knowing that it's jumping out of an airplane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Walters9515 Posted September 30, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2005 can you guide me please to help me out more about word painting melodies and background melodies listening examples or explain what it is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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