Help Me Make The Major Scale Rock!

[kyoun1e]

I've been banging away at my practice routine for a solid two weeks. Very happy with results. By some miracle I'm moving pretty damn well over both the minor pentatonic and major scale at 180 bpm. Even 200 on the pentatonic minor.

 

However, one problem. While my pentatonic licks sound like rock, my major scale licks sound like...scales. (or crud).

 

How can I break out of this?

 

I find that with the pentatonic minor I can stay in a couple boxes and make some nasty/good sounds. Great. But with the major scale I've really got to move and shift...quickly. It seems like it's more important to move rapidly from one box to the other either descending or ascending.

 

Anyways, any practice licks that would help me out?

 

Or are there some really great rock riffs out there that use the major scale (but I would realize it)?

 

Thanks. KY

[wfranklin]

learn the modes!!!!!!!!!!!! you will be able to emphasize particular notes and tensions within the tonality with out having that predictabilty or gayness associated with the major scale.

[lazaraga]

try to figure out melodies in the major scale- start w/ simple ones like nursery rhymes, xmas carols, etc. songs you know by heart.

try to incorporate some bends in your playing, listen for places where a melody moves from one note, up a step, then back to the same note. that would be a good place to bend.

explore every mathematical permutation of the major scale.
harmonize the major scale using every interval.
find all arpeggios within the major, triads and 7th chords.

should get you started.


peace

[kyoun1e]

Whenever I hear "modes" and "harmonize" my eyes start to glaze. The theory stuff just slows me down so much.

How can I practice modes and harmonizing?

In fact, what the hell is harmonizing?

KY

[gennation]

Well, then, the best place to start is to stop your head from spinning when these terms are used.

Come on over to my site and first check out the Intervals Series. One you have a grasp on that move to the Chord Construction Series.

These two will give you a great foundation on the stuff you need to know to keep your head from spining.

Those are part of my Beginner to Advanced Series at my site. They will teach you in a very easy way and are also great refreshers for Avdanced players.

Trust me, they will help.

[wfranklin]

modes (of c major)

scales are as follows, with the altered note capitalized

1. ionian (natural major, the one you already know)
c, d, e, f, d, a, b

2. dorian (minor with a raised 6th)
d, e, f, g, a, B, c

3. phyrgian (minor with a flat 2nd)
e, F, g, a, b, c, d

4. lydian (major with a raised 4th)
f, g, a, B, c, d, e

5. mixolyian (major with a flat 7th, also called a dominants 7th)
g, a, b, c, d, e, F

6. aeolian (natural minor) the relative minor is always the 6th mode
a, b, c, d, e, f, g

7. locrian (minor with a flat 2 and flat 5, also called half diminished)
b, c, d, e, f, g, a


notice how all the notes are in the key of c but they orbit a different pitch in each respective key. say for example you are playing in the key of c but you want to sound like carlos santana. his music has a minor sound, but its kinda different sounding. he makes frequent use of the phrygian mode, so you may want to experiment with the e phrygian mode.

you are proficient with pentatonics, thats a great place to start with modes believe it or not. When you are playing in the key of c, you can use the a minor pentatonic, the d minor pentatonic, and the e minor pentatonic. using the pentatonics circumvents the other notes in the "mode", which can also be called as passing tones. you can really just learn the location of the passing tones in relation to pentatonics. that will open up the fretboard to you and help you hear the modes.

i would suggest working each scale out for yourself first over one octave then over two. by the time you work them all out over 2 and see how they fit together, you will have a complete knowlege of the fretboard, and will never have to worry about finding the right notes or palying the same stuff over and over again.

sry for the long post. pm me if you have any additional questions. modes baffled me for the longest time until my guitar teacher put them to me the right way.

[kyoun1e]

Wfranklin,

Dumb question on modes:

* What you just communicated as modes, aren't they just different "forms" of the C major scale starting at a different root note on the low E string? It seems like you just moved from the 8th fret (Root C) to 10 (D), 12 (E), etc.

One thing I guess I never really scrutinized is the sound of the scale if you start from a different spot other than the root note. I kinda assumed the whole entire scale across the entire fretboard took on the same "personality."

I know those forms no matter what key I start in, but I guess I never thought about the notes themselves either. I DO know that I kinda have a feel for where the root notes are when I am in a certain key. It's a wierd "feel" thing that I just realized I understood. It's like I know when I'm approaching it and when I should land on it.

Thanks. KY

[gennation]

Your right, those are just the positions of the C Major Scale...when in the 'key' of C Major.

But if you are in a "tonal center" of one of the notes in the C Major scale...then you play in that mode.

Confused yet?

The best thing you can do with this scale, when thinking each note of the scale is a root...is to build the chords off each note of the scale.

The scales you where just given are fine but to hear the scales in the key...build the chords. Building to the '7' chord for each note would be these chords:

C Ionian builds a Cmaj7

D Dorian builds a Dm7

E Phrygian builds an Em7

F Lydian builds a Fmaj7

G Mixolydian builds a G7

A Aeolean builds an Am7

B Locrian builds a Bm7b5

Now if you play the C Major scale, then you play these chords in order...you hear that the chords are the same thing as the scale but with harmony, and each of those harmonized notes is moving up in order just like the Root note is moving straight up the scale.

Now with the chords, and the key...you can use the Major Scale to it fullest...make the notes fit the chords.

All the notes are from the same scale, and all the chords are built from that same scale. So, come up with some chords progressions in key, and use the appropiate Major scale for playing in that key.

[kyoun1e]

"Make the notes fit the chords."

Now if my brain could memorize every note I'd be all set.

Wish there was a button I could press that would have my brain and fingers remember.

I'm starting to get this, but what you are saying is going to take fooorrrrrreeeeeevvvvvver.

Why oh why didn't I take up guitar when I was blowing off college classes.

Thanks. KY

[gennation]

Originally posted by kyoun1e Why oh why didn't I take up guitar when I was blowing off college classes. Thanks. KY

That's exactly what I did, seriously

Well, actually I was playing about 4 years before, but I took Accounting and a classical guitar course...I also got a pass to a private practice room with that guitar course...well, I showed up to college everyday with my guitar, a tape player, music books...and the room had a piano in it to!!!! I'd hole up in that room from 9AM to about 7PM everyday until I completely didn't have any access to that college anymore.

[jazzman8088]

One word for modes- CAGED

[simeon]

firstly - Santana's music makes heavy use of the Dorian mode - NOT Phrygian, as stated earlier...

you can also hear the dorian mode if you listen to No Quarter by Led Zeppelin. Page does a lovely solo on this tune on the live double album - all in the Dorian mode

so here's the confusing part -

when you write out all the modes as above...C ionian, D dorian, E Phrygian etc...it's confusing because the most obvious question is always...but why bother, it's all the sames notes, don't they all sound the same?

the answer is really simple - just write them out all starting from C - then you can see that each one is actually different, due to the "step pattern" or the distance between the notes - have a look...

C ionian - C D E F G A B
C dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb
C phrygian - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb
C lydian - C D E F# G A B
C mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb
C aeolian - C D Eb F G Ab Bb
C locrian - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb

the trick to remembering the modes is to remember the step pattern or the formula - here are the formulae for the first three modes...

C ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
C phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

you can work out the others - just compare each mode to the major scale

so then if you know the notes of A major, for example, you can then work out what A dorian would be from the formua - just flatten the 3rd and the 7th...

there are many, many rock songs written in the Aolian mode - which is mode 6 of the major scale - try soloing over Am G F G using A aeolian...

hope that helps

sim

[kyoun1e]

Gennation,

So let's say there's a song I'm soloing over and the chords are C, F, G.

Should I basically be playing notes first on Ionian ©, then Lydian (F), and then Mixolodyian (G)? Are those the "tonics" for the modes?

(And who the hell gave these scales such crazy names? Makes it much easier to remember...NOT!)

Interested to know. Band I'm in is covering Hole's "Boys On The Radio" which is C, F, G the whole way through.

Gennation/Simeon...I've got to pring out your posts. And I then need to walk through these modes and get a feel for them.

Thanks. KY

[simeon]

Originally posted by kyoun1e Gennation, So let's say there's a song I'm soloing over and the chords are C, F, G. Should I basically be playing notes first on Ionian (C), then Lydian (F), and then Mixolodyian (G)? Are those the "tonics" for the modes?

 

 

the short answer is yes, but a bit of investigation will show you that those three modes all share exactly the same notes, so there's no point in actually thinking "modally" in this tune, as all three chords are from the same key. just be aware of which notes you're playing and how they relate to the notes in the chords. and use your ears!

 

sim

[Slave_New_Wurld]

Originally posted by wfranklin modes (of c major) scales are as follows, with the altered note capitalized 1. ionian (natural major, the one you already know) c, d, e, f, d, a, b 2. dorian (minor with a raised 6th) d, e, f, g, a, B, c 3. phyrgian (minor with a flat 2nd) e, F, g, a, b, c, d 4. lydian (major with a raised 4th) f, g, a, B, c, d, e 5. mixolyian (major with a flat 7th, also called a dominants 7th) g, a, b, c, d, e, F 6. aeolian (natural minor) the relative minor is always the 6th mode a, b, c, d, e, f, g 7. locrian (minor with a flat 2 and flat 5, also called half diminished) b, c, d, e, f, g, a

 

 

This is good, to the point stuff. Thankyou.

[johnkline]

He already knows the modes if he knows the major scale. What if your soloing and there is no chord progression? Everybody says use this over that chord progression but a lot of solos I hear it's just the solo guitar over the drummer or bassist. So how do you handle the situation of just soloing without a progression?



john

[simeon]

Originally posted by johnkline He already knows the modes if he knows the major scale. What if your soloing and there is no chord progression? Everybody says use this over that chord progression but a lot of solos I hear it's just the solo guitar over the drummer or bassist. So how do you handle the situation of just soloing without a progression? john

 

 

context

 

if the whole tune is just guitar and drums, then you could basically play whatever you like...

 

you could play completely "free", with no reference to any tonality whatsoever...

 

or you could "imply" a chord progression that only exists in your mind...

 

if the tune has a more regular arrangement before and after the solo section, then you might want to use those tonalities as a reference, or you might want to go somewhere completely different and so cause a musical "surprise" when everybody else comes back in...

 

there are plenty of examples in rock and jazz where this happens

 

one example that comes immediately to mind is "the drums were yellow" from "the sixteen men of tain" by allan holdsworth

 

i'm sure people could come up with many other examples and you could check them out and maybe analyse what's going on

 

n.b. - if there is a bassist playing, then he should be outlining the chord progression, either with just root notes, or including other notes from the chords (and perhaps with passing tones in between each chord) - so the harmony is outlined in some form or another

 

you don't actually need someone to play chords to solo "over" them - there are plenty of jazz trios with just sax, bass and drums and even some bassless trios.

 

you could even practice soloing on a jazz standard, completely on your own without anybody else playing the chords - you just have to keep them in your head as you do it (which you should be doing anyway)

 

sim

[Slave_New_Wurld]

Originally posted by johnkline He already knows the modes if he knows the major scale. What if your soloing and there is no chord progression? Everybody says use this over that chord progression but a lot of solos I hear it's just the solo guitar over the drummer or bassist. So how do you handle the situation of just soloing without a progression? john

 

 

Soloing without a progression? Wouldn't that sound kind of empty?

[simeon]

Originally posted by Slave_New_Wurld Soloing without a progression? Wouldn't that sound kind of empty?

does anybody here actually listen to music...?




not trying to be rude or flame anybody, but sometimes i wonder...!

[gennation]

Originally posted by simeon the short answer is yes, but a bit of investigation will show you that those three modes all share exactly the same notes, so there's no point in actually thinking "modally" in this tune, as all three chords are from the same key. just be aware of which notes you're playing and how they relate to the notes in the chords. and use your ears! sim

 

 

He answered it.

 

Ely Dian

 

That link is a tune without chords, well one chord, E5. With this chord the options are open. Since it's neither major or minor, and theres no other chord to tell us "what key are we in"...I'm pretty wide open to do what I want.

 

I choose an E Lydian scale for it. All the notes except one very breif passage are from the E Lydian scale.

 

The cool thing is that the Lydian scale is usually a 'major' sounding scale...but it sounds minor as hell here.

 

Playing the E Lydian scale over the E type chord harmonizes it as a Emaj13/#11 which puts my in the key of B Major...but since there's no other chords and the home/tonal center/key is from E, I say it's in E Lydian.

 

But if you played the E5 chord and you played the B Major scale over it and you focused/landed/started on the E's...it would be the exact same thing.

 

If I chose to add another chord from some other key, and E5 was in that new key also...the thing would change to that new key...not so much a new mode, but a new key.

[simeon]

Originally posted by simeon does anybody here actually listen to music...? not trying to be rude or flame anybody, but sometimes i wonder...!

sorry - that was a flippant answer

let's define our terms first, so there's no confusion...

when you say "progression" i assume you mean "chords"? i ask, because it's possible to have a "harmonic progression" without the chords actually being played...

if you mean "chords" then soloing without chords may sound kind of empty, but if the drummer was beating the crap out of his kit and the soloist was going hell for leather, then it may not...!

anyway...you may want it to sound "empty"...and use it as a dynamic device to create tension...which would then be resolved when the rest of the band came crashing back in...

it all comes down to context again....

sim

[Slave_New_Wurld]

Originally posted by simeon sorry - that was a flippant answer let's define our terms first, so there's no confusion... when you say "progression" i assume you mean "chords"? i ask, because it's possible to have a "harmonic progression" without the chords actually being played... if you mean "chords" then soloing without chords may sound kind of empty, but if the drummer was beating the crap out of his kit and the soloist was going hell for leather, then it may not...! anyway...you may want it to sound "empty"...and use it as a dynamic device to create tension...which would then be resolved when the rest of the band came crashing back in... it all comes down to context again.... sim

Sorry, yeh I understand what you mean.

That tension thing you mentioned I do hear a lot, but to me it is just like a filler moment for effect. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sounds like I'm arguing with you but I'm not!!

[D K]

This thread is awesome! and the reason is that this is exactly where my teacher and i are at right now. The weird thing is that the tune (the 1st one I am choosing to learn) is Carlos Santana's "Europa" - However he said that Santana definitely likes to work the Phrygian Mode?

This is great stuff - My problem is the chord building off of the scale "mode" - i have read thru Gennation's interval and chord building lessons and I understand that the key relationship is the 3rd to the root or "tonal center" but I have a hard time getting past that point.

We are going to start addressing this tonight so maybe I will get a better idea of how to "stack" these chords correctly.

Great stuff guys!!

[simeon]

let us know how you get on DK!

sim

[D K]

Will do - I hope I am on the right track with my thinking?

Love your site by the way!!

There are some people with some really cool sites! - I think it is awesome how a lot of you guys share your knowledge for free - Kudos to ya!!

PS - If you guys havent been checking it out - you have got to check out the "Overkill Shredder" threads over in Guitars - They are hilarious:D