Members billyg121 Posted March 24, 2006 Members Posted March 24, 2006 please help me with this thought...i have been learning basic music theory...in the process i will try to disect a lot of my favorite tunes(analyze the key, scale etc.)it seems that a lot of popular music like nirvana,does not construct the song to stay with in a key.the new guitar one magazine talks about the eddie van halen scale????what the hell key is that appropriate for.i am just confused.do a lot of these musicians just flat out play...not regarding theory.some maybe 50/50 or what.thanks for anyones input.
Members gennation Posted March 24, 2006 Members Posted March 24, 2006 Originally posted by billyg121 please help me with this thought...i have been learning basic music theory...in the process i will try to disect a lot of my favorite tunes(analyze the key, scale etc.)it seems that a lot of popular music like nirvana,does not construct the song to stay with in a key.the new guitar one magazine talks about the eddie van halen scale????what the hell key is that appropriate for.i am just confused.do a lot of these musicians just flat out play...not regarding theory.some maybe 50/50 or what.thanks for anyones input. Yes, many players just play. What the "van halen scale" is, who knows. Tab it out or something. I've played a lot of his stuff but never learned a scale named after him. People get "help" from theory, but nobody really plays based on theory. That's a a hard thing for guitarist to take...based on when they are shown scales, especially the Blues Scale, they take that verbatim and learn "the pattern". And, of course at first it seems like it's everything... but as time goes on they realize there's a lot more happening out there than just that scale, so they learn some more scales, and more scales, then they learn these things called modes... but even after years of having these tools, it still seems that there is something missing from the puzzle. Theory is nothing more than a way to understand, and a way to communicate to others....much like all those scales you know don't do EVERYTHING for you...it's all tools. Now take all those tools and put them in the right hands and you end up with a nicely built house, put those tools in the wrong hands and you end up with a shack. Some people don't need any tools to build anything. Some people have the instinct for building and some don't...the instinct for a musician is sound using their ear, and feel...knowing where things should go. Once you have those two things all those dots on the fretboard showing you patterns don't really mean as much anymore. I think you'd get some use out of my website (http://lessons.mikedodge.com). There's some basic theory stuff there that will set you up nicely going forward. And there's some other tutorials there that will show you how to use somes scales you already know, better...from a sound or music sense more so than a pattern that's "supposed to work". I can think of a couple of of things Eddie did that I hadn't seen anyone else do at the time. Post that scale and I'm sure we can help you out.
Members jazzbo Posted March 25, 2006 Members Posted March 25, 2006 You bring up Nirvana and I think I know what you are talking about in regards to "what is the key signature"? Actually there were some very creative uses of harmony in those songs. It's interesting because a very common rock and roll progression is to go from one major chord to a major chord built on a root a flat third higher. For instance, E major to G major. Technically those two chords don't fall in any one scale or key. You see that progression all the time in rock and roll, including Nirvana. Generally the answer in that case is, it's in the key of E, but there is no G natural note in the E major scale. Part of the reason it works is because an E minor pentatonic scale sounds bluesy/rockish over an E major chord. So you would actually solo in the minor scale over the E major chord. For instance, "Smells Like Teen Spirit", E-A-G-C... what is the key? E and A are in E major, G and C are in G major. But since E is the relative minor to G, an E minor pentatonic scale will work over the whole chord progression. So we would say it's in the key of E but all of the chords are not derived from that scale. Usually chords in a song are derived from one scale, but sometimes you will see exceptions like that. Rock and roll doesn't always follow theory.
Members dastardlydrvish Posted March 25, 2006 Members Posted March 25, 2006 Theory is useful for figuring out and discussing what is happening in a piece of music, and it can help to open some new doors when you get stuck in a composition or improv. But- and I can't stress this enough- theory should _NEVER_ be viewed as "rules" for the "correct" way to make music. It's the most widespread and, I think, the most dangerous myth about music theory among those who are new to the game. -dd
Members gogo Posted March 25, 2006 Members Posted March 25, 2006 Originally posted by billyg121 it seems that a lot of popular music ... does not construct the song to stay with in a key. Most music (other than *very* simple tunes) doesn't strictly stay in one key. --I started to mention Jingle Bells, but even that has a dominant II7 chord (D7 in key of C .) Non-harmonic tones / blue notes; tonicizations; modulations; chords borrowed from other keys (as jazzbo explained); clusters; not to mention atonal etc. The first step to understanding music theory is to understand one key. But no one said the music has to stay there.
Members bardsley Posted March 25, 2006 Members Posted March 25, 2006 Most current theory would say that just because you temporarily move to a chord with notes from outside the scale, doesn't mean you're changing key. Most rock and pop tunes don't change key at all, they simply incorporate some chords that sit a little bit out of the major scale harmony. Mainly from blues harmony, in which both the minor and major third are included in the tonic scale. Theory is a great way to figure out what chords might sound good. But if it doesn't sound good, theory isn't going to make it better. And if something weird sounds good to you, theory isn't going to make it bad. You'd be surprised, however, to discover how easily modern music theory deals with all of this stuff which people like to say falls outside of its scope. Most people who say that the theory doesn't explain it tend to be simply saying they only have the most basic grasp of what music theory encompasses.
Members billyg121 Posted March 25, 2006 Author Members Posted March 25, 2006 thanks for the insight...for me i think i just get frustrated with improvisation and what to play melodically over what chord.
Members UFOScorpion Posted March 26, 2006 Members Posted March 26, 2006 Theory has it's place - but so does originality, inspirition, humor, etc. Study it but don't be a slave to it. The guy on JFrocks gives the EVH scale as a 9-tone scale, almost chromatic obviously. Also as obvious, he doesn't use all 9-tones in every run - he just "draws" from those tones. You can get the same effect - and here I'm giving away one of my secrets - by making your own scales. I posted a tab of several of these, which I use for shredding (well, as much as I can actually shred, anyway) on my Yahoo group, Castle of Shred. I can't put them here, but if you PM me I'll email you a copy of that file. Or you can join the Yahoo group and check them out - as well as other stuff - for yourself. "Shredding is the art of playing the guitar in an amazing way, coupling awesome technique with baffling speed, often in a neoclassical framework."
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