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QUESTIONS for those who know their STUFF


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Posted

Can anyone please give me a simple answer to the following questions?

 

(1) Which chords can be played for which key? Ex: If I'm in the Key of G, which chords go together?

 

(2) Which scales can be used for soloing in the various keys, preferrably keeping it limited to major and minor pentatonic? Ex: If I'm playing in the Key of G, where do I start my solo, at which position?

 

(3) Please give a relevant song for each example.

 

I'm asking these questions ebcause I know little about music theory. I usually play from the gut, but lately I've hit a sticking point and want to expand my knowlege of theory for myself and for when I teach. Thanks!

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Posted

the first two questions are basically the same - because once you're in a particular key, then the chords are constructed from the notes in that key and you solo using those notes as well

so if you're in C major, you have the notes

CDEFGAB

those are the notes you use to solo with and you construct the chords in thirds like this

C E G B - C major7
D F A C - D minor7
E G B D - E minor7

etc etc

just start on each note and select alternate ones from there to stack up the chord

each major scale contains three minor pentatonics starting on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th notes of the scale, so C major contains Dminor pent, Eminor pent and Aminor pent, so you can use those as well as the full scale

for practice, finish constructing the remaining 4 chords in C major and then write a chord sequence containing some of the chords. then practice soloing over it using the notes from C major and the three pentatonics from that scale

one example of a song containing chords from C major is "No Woman No Cry" by Bob Marley

you will get a lot of other responses to this thread, some may be helpful and some will probably be confusing to you (such is the nature of messageboards), but everything you need to know for this stage of your playing is in this post - understand the information i've given you and you'll be well on your way

the most important thing to remeber is that solos, basslines, melodies and chords are all expressions of the same thing - they all use notes from the same key - melodies are just notes from the key played consecutively and chords are notes from the key played simultaneously

sim

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Posted

+1

Simeon's post was the most clear introductory explanation to how chords are constructed I've seen in a while.

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Posted

Originally posted by Janx

+1


Simeon's post was the most clear introductory explanation to how chords are constructed I've seen in a while.

 

 

AGREED! I'm even bookmarking this one for future reference! Thanks Simeon!

 

L8R

 

Raths

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Posted

Learn your key signatures first so you know what notes are in each key to build the chords with. It will be work if you dont do this first.

Its called the Circle of Fifths. Learn it, live it.:thu:

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Posted

evh1984:

Looking at your user name and sig I would guess some of Simeon's advice may be meaningless to you. If you are into rock, I would suggest:

* forget about adding the seventh when constructing chords, e.g. those silly maj7 and m7 chords, not used that much in rock/heavy metal

* forget about making the VII chord diminished, as would happen if you followed the chord construction advice given, the VII chord in rock is usually flatted. e.g. key of E, a VII chord if used will usually be D.

* I have been playing for 35 years and know a lot of songs & solos (just rock, not other genres, of which I am the first to admit I am woefully ignorant), the advice about using the minor pentatonic scale which starts on the 2nd or 3rd degree of the scale sounds way off base to me. The 6th? absolutely, used all the time. The 2nd and 3rd? Show me just one example from Hendrix, or Van Halen, or Dimebag... well you get the point.

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Posted

from an older thread:

If you start with the chord names, without worrying about their "flavors" (major, minor, seventh), for most rock songs, there's usually just a few possibilites.

example: key of A major, the most likely chord names (ignoring the "flavors' as mentioned above) are:
A B C# D E F# G#

then as you start listening to more songs (or learning about theory) you realize the ii and iii are usually minor, ditto for the vi:
A Bm C#m D E F#m G#dim

and what's up with that silly VII dim chord?... from experience (not that theory will teach you this) , you learn you can forget it because in rock the VII is usually flatted, so instead its

A Bm C#m D E F#m G

and then lots of times the ii and iii chords aren't even used, so instead you may be looking at something like
A C D E G

which of course bears an uncanny resemblence to the A minor pentatonic scale

To make it even simpler, try focusing on just the I, IV and V chords to start with. I remember from my days in music classes, almost everyone could hear these chord changes. (and you'd be amazed how many songs are just mainly I, IV and V chords) Then fill in the blanks (the other chords) as you get better at it.

Again, all of the above is a simplistic bonehead approach to rock (e.g. the Ramones as you mentioned), YMMV when venturing outside that particular genre.

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Posted

Originally posted by guitarviz

evh1984:

Looking at your user name and sig I would guess some of Simeon's advice may be meaningless to you.

 

 

that's a big assumption

 

 

* forget about adding the seventh when constructing chords, e.g. those silly maj7 and m7 chords, not used that much in rock/heavy metal

 

 

what's silly is telling someone to not bother learning something and leaving a hole in their knowledge. the best thing to do is learn everything and only use what you need

 

 

* forget about making the VII chord diminished, as would happen if you followed the chord construction advice given, the VII chord in rock is usually flatted. e.g. key of E, a VII chord if used will usually be D.

 

 

if you flatten the VII chord, then you'e not playing in major any more - you are correct that the VII chord in rock is usually a triad below the root chord, but you offer no explanation of how this is derived, so would seem completely meaningless and confusing to someone who doesn't understand.

 

 

* I have been playing for 35 years and know a lot of songs & solos (just rock, not other genres, of which I am the first to admit I am woefully ignorant), the advice about using the minor pentatonic scale which starts on the 2nd or 3rd degree of the scale sounds way off base to me. The 6th? absolutely, used all the time. The 2nd and 3rd? Show me just one example from Hendrix, or Van Halen, or Dimebag... well you get the point.

 

 

in the context of my reply - if the chord sequence you were soloing over was this...

 

Dm / Dm / F / G

 

(all chords from C major) then the Dm pentatonic would work well

 

and in this chord sequence...

 

Em / G / C / Am

 

again...all chords from C major, the Em pent would be a good choice

 

 

i'm a strong believer in providing accurate, concise information that is based on a judgement of the questioners level. i will try not to provide too much information so as to be confusing, but i will also try to provide just enough information so that the questioner can use it to discover things for themselves (which i believe is the best way to learn)

 

i would hope that the questioner would be able to work out the other chords in the key of c major and then perhaps to go on and work out some chords in other keys. i would also hope that they would figure out when it is appropriate to use the various pentatonics based on their experience of using them.

 

 

sim

Posted

Originally posted by simeon


what's silly is telling someone to not bother learning something and leaving a hole in their knowledge. the best thing to do is learn everything and only use what you need

 

 

 

Seventh chords certainly aren't silly, but for someone who doesn't even understand where triads come from, jumping straight into seventh chords is going in a little too deep to begin with. Guitarviz does have a point though, that not all styles use seventh chords, so by presenting a harmonized scale as only seventh chords will be confusing to people who play a lot of music that is only triad based. If they're not familiar with major 7 and dominant 7th chords, it's hard to look at that and extrapolate that they're both major triads.

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Posted

that's a fair comment pop - i guessed that the questioner may figure out that they were triads with an extra note added as he's not a complete beginner (he's actually a teacher!) - but i guess i should have clarified a bit more

my bad

sim

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Posted

Wow, thanks for all of the helpful replies! When reading through the replies I guess I should have mentioned a few other things:

(1) I play in a loud rock/blues context 90% of the time. What I was specifically looking for was the most common keys/chords/scales in power rock/blues... and which ones fit with which.

(2) I have been playing for a couple of years and have used a couple of basic books which mostly say things like: "Ok, this song is made up of G, C, A..now strum it like this". But it never tells me WHY it's made up of those chords, WHY not some other chords? And if I learn to strum it, what scale do I use to solo over it?

Sound like legit questions?

(3) I don't think of myself as a very good player, but I get people who will hear me and ask me to show them how I did this or that, and I can show them but I can't give them a rational reason as to why...it just sounds good to me I guess. That's why I'd like a little basic theory.

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Posted

here's a common rock chord sequence...

Em / D / C / D

write out the notes of the chords...

Em = E G B
D = D A F#
C = C E G

put all those notes in order starting from E, as that seems to be the tonal centre...

E F# G A B C D

there you have a scale called E aeolian, which has the same notes in it as G major

chords are notes from a key played simultaneously, remember?

so you can use this scale to solo over this progression

remeber we can get minor pents from 2, 3 and 6 of the major scale?

that gives us Am pent, Bm pent and Em pent (from G major)

i'd use Em pent and Bm pent to solo over this progression if i had to use a pentatonic

see how it kinda all fits together?

blues is a whole different kettle of fish because it's not strictly Diatonic

i havn't got time to do a whole post about blues rock progressions, but maybe Poparad or somebody could chip in

there's no shortcut or magic bullet - if you want to be able to analyse chord sequences you'll have to do some learnin' i'm afraid

sim

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Posted

Simeon -

You seemed to be describing how things should work, in theory. (pun intended). Which is not always the same as how it works in practice.

For example, why is the VII chord almost always flatted in rock? I have no idea. But that's the way it works, here are some examples.

Highway to Hell
Back in Black
Ramble On
Good Times Bad Times
Voodoo Chile (chorus)

and for evh1984:
Panama

observations:
* in all of above, rhythm guitar is playing major chord of song key (example, E major) while lead solos are generally in minor pentatonic of same key (example, E minor pent).

* so are these in a major or minor key (you mentioned if the VII chord gets flatted it is no longer major?) (most songbooks/mags I've seen have them notated as major, e.g. E major for all of the above examples except Hiway to Hell, A major of course)

Regarding using the pentatonic scales of the second or third degree of the scale, you didn't mention your assumption that one of the underlying chords would be the same, for example in key of C, the progression includes a Dm, so yeah, I'd agree, if you timed it right a Dm pentatonic might sound good. (isn't that just more a case of "playing off the chord", anyway?) But point being, supposing there's no Dm chord lurking anywhere near, then that theory might not always work. For example playing a Dm penta scale over a standard three-chord blues. Might sound kinda out there.

I apologize for not realizing you were trying to give a more generalized, theoretical, this-is-how-it-should-work reply. I'm guessing its Fri end of day over there, go have a pint, cheers mate
;)

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Posted
Originally posted by guitarviz


* in all of above, rhythm guitar is playing major chord of song key (example, E major) while lead solos are generally in minor pentatonic of same key (example, E minor pent).
;)



clarifying, I'm not talking about the VII chord here, but a separate issue, what key is song in

obviously the VII chord would be D say for song key of E major

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Posted

ok, lets take highway to hell as an example - the main riff is A then D to G

these three chords come from the scale of A mixolydian

A C# E
D F# A
G B D

A B C# D E F# G

you could therefore use A mixolydian to solo over it, or you could use the A major pentatonic (F#m pent, from note 3 of D major) or you could use the A minor pentatonic to give you a more bluesy feel....or use a mixture of all three

the A minor pentatonic works in the context of an A major chord, because we accept that sound - it's a long established way of playing (and the minor third, the C is usually slightly bent up to C#) - i can't tell you why it works, because "theoretically"...on paper...it shouldn't...but of course it sounds great

concerning pentatonics - i would be quite happy to use an Em pentatonic over the following sequence...

Am / G / Cmaj7 / Fmaj7

even though the sequence doesn't contain any Em chords - the sequence is in C and Em pent is one of the three available from C

it works because of the notes in Em pent form pleasing extensions against the chords

Am - Em pent gives us the 5th , b7th, root, 9th and 11th
G - Em pent gives us the 13th, root, 9th, 3rd and 5th
Cmaj7 - Em pent gives us the 3rd, 5th, 13th, maj7th and 9th
Fmaj7 - Em pent gives us the maj7th, 9th, 3rd, #11th and 13th

these all sound pretty good to my ears

you can try playing an Em pent over an Am chord and see if you like the sound better than playing an Am pent over an Am chord - you get nicer notes if you do (i think)

the problem with rock music from a theoretical point of view, is that it has it's roots in blues, which as i said before is not based around "traditional diatonic theory", so sometimes it's hard to analyse from that perspective. which doesn't really matter - you learn what works from experience...listening to records...copping licks...and then using them with your own spin to create something original....and that's the important thing. if you can analyse what works from a theoretical point of view and then use that theory to help you create more music, then that's great, but if you can't analyse it and STILL learn from it and make great music from it, then that's cool too!

sim

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Posted

Originally posted by simeon


the problem with rock music from a theoretical point of view, is that it has it's roots in blues, which as i said before is not based around "traditional diatonic theory", so sometimes it's hard to analyse from that perspective. which doesn't really matter - you learn what works from experience...listening to records...copping licks...and then using them with your own spin to create something original....and that's the important thing. if you can analyse what works from a theoretical point of view and then use that theory to help you create more music, then that's great, but if you can't analyse it and STILL learn from it and make great music from it, then that's cool too!


sim

 

 

I was raised playing and listening to only classical, and I realized this the moment I started playing rock music on the guitar. It's a very rudimentary music form compared to "serious" music. In a sense it's stupid made genius through trial and error and gut feelings and crazy notions about "what if I do this and then I do this? Nah, that didn't work. OK.... Let's try this and this! Yeah, that sounds cool! " "OK guys, here's our new song!!"

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Posted

Originally posted by Paragraph51



I was raised playing and listening to only classical, and I realized this the moment I started playing rock music on the guitar. It's a very rudimentary music form compared to "serious" music.

 

 

I agree, altho I'm a rocker at heart, I have to admit its very simplistic compared to classical, its more like traditional folk music in a way. Rock is like the music that people would be dancing to down on the village green in medieval days. While in the lord's castle the gentlemen and ladies would be listening to the serious stuff.

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