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Why does IIMajor 'work'?


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Posted

i was just messing about with chords, anyway i came up with Em-G- Am-C and the Am just sounded 'off' and not what i wanted to hear.

 

So i changed it to Em-G- A-C and it sounded better. but why is this? i was playing in G so the Am should work better i would have thought but it didn't.

 

:confused:

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Posted

Amin is the ii chord, you will get a Dorian sound if you play G major on a Amin chord. My guess is that you werent playing an Amin chord. lol. It should work fine. Petrucci, DiMeola and jazz people use dorian all the time.

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Posted

 

Originally posted by red|dragon

Amin is the ii chord, you will get a Dorian sound if you play G major on a Amin chord. My guess is that you werent playing an Amin chord. lol. It should work fine. Petrucci, DiMeola and jazz people use dorian all the time.

 

 

he's not talking about playing over the chords, he is asking why those chords sound good together even though A major is out of the key of E minor.

 

I'd like to know the theory answer for this as well, all I know is "outside" chords work a lot of times - there are some written down rules for this, but I don't know them off hand.

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Posted

Well as a general rule in jazz theory, which is modern straight theory really, you can change those minor chords in a diatonic key to Major chords.

 

I know of a spot that kind of explains it. I'll try and find it.

 

But you can hear it's function here...

 

Diatonic: || I | vi | ii | V ||

 

In the Key C Major: || C | Am | Dm | G ||

 

Now try this: || C | A | D | G ||

 

Try it with the '7 type' chords...and we'll also see we can change the new Major chords to Dominant 7 chords:

 

|| Cmaj7 | Am7 | Dm7 | G7 ||

 

Now change it to: || Cmaj7 | A7 | D7 | G7 ||

 

From here you can get whacked...by using the alterations on the dominant 7 chords, substitutions (new voicings), and the b5 substitution rule that chord progression could be:

 

|| Cmaj7 | A7 | D7 | G7 | Em11 | Eb7 | D7 | Db7 | Cmaj7 | A7 | D7 | G7 ||

 

You can alter the crap out of the X7 chords, which actually produces the b5 substitution chords.

 

But, I beleive all this avalanches due to the the ii-V things you can twist into it.

 

Like Em can be substituted for C. But then, Em is moving to the A...which is a II-V type movement. Due to this, Am sounds fine as A7. Em to A7 produces a ii-V movement.

 

Now originally we had Am moving to Dm, but A to D could also be the movement of a II to a V. Even though we changed Am to A7 the sound can still lead to a II-V movement, so Dm can work as D, or D7.

 

Now D to G still produces the II-V sound even though it's D7 to G7.

 

Remember, all that takes place from first viewing the I chord, C, as an Em. Then you are just moving up 4th's (or down 5th's ) producing a series of II-V movements.

 

I know I'm close on this, but I'll go look for that site :)

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Posted

this is simply an example of Modal Interchange

 

the first 3 chords are from E dorian and then the C chord is from E aeolian

 

this is a very common technique

 

you're staying rooted in E, but changing modes

 

you can slap a D chord inbetween the C and Em if you like

 

the shift from dorian to aeolian is commonly used and sounds great

 

 

cheers

 

sim

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Posted

 

Originally posted by simeon

this is simply an example of Modal Interchange


the first 3 chords are from E dorian and then the C chord is from E aeolian


this is a very common technique


you're staying rooted in E, but changing modes


you can slap a D chord inbetween the C and Em if you like


the shift from dorian to aeolian is commonly used and sounds great



cheers


sim

 

 

 

 

I was thinking in G major when i was playing with the chords?

 

looking at it from another way like that, it kinda makes more sense, i shall have to read up on Modal Interchange !!

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Posted

I have heard it called Mode Mixture.

 

Also look up Major/Minor Parallel Keys, Mode Mixture and/or Modal Interchange (major/minor interchange), Borrowed Chord, and also re-harmonization.

 

But basically you can borrow chords from the parallel major and minor keys. This gives you the major/minor interchange and modal interchange. And, these are levels of re-harmonization.

 

But still that 4th backcycling and II-V movement gives it it's function I believe.

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Posted

Hey there,

 

Here's my two cents on this subject.

 

If we consider your first chord progression that goes Em-G-Am-C, it is pretty evident that it is an expanded version of the I-IV progression. (It could be V-I, but that is for later).

 

Now as Gennation pointed out, there are many different reharmonizations a composer can make. There are chords that one can borrow from the relative major/minor, from the parallel major/minor, from closely related keys of both parallel and relative major/minor, and finally from non related keys.

 

Such substitution or reharmonizations has been around for many years, and as time goes by the harmonization seems to go further and further away from the original key. I think the by product of all this, especially when it got to the 20th century classical music, is that the quality of the chord lost its meaning.

 

That is not to say that G to C is no longer dominant to tonic, but it is an indication that harmony became so free and creative that traditional analysis of harmony no longer has much merit. Even pop stars like John Mayer wrote chord progression that would seem odd in the traditional sense of western harmony. (that song daughters

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Posted

Em G A C is "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone" !

also first 4 chords of "House of the Rising Sun" (if in Em.)

 

 

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Posted

Originally posted by gogo

Em G A C is "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone" !

also first 4 chords of "House of the Rising Sun" (if in Em.)


 

 

You know you have clicked it for me! "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone" i was thinking that prog sounded kind of familiar when i played it faster!

 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the other replies :) i have understood a good whack of it but i'll have to re-read some of it again, to get it to sink in.

  • 2 weeks later...
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Posted

Another example of Em - G - A - C sound is Green Grass & High Tides by the Outlaws (Em - C - G - D - A)

 

Also Hotel California, altho its in key of Bm, if you transposed to key of Em, it would be: Em - B7 - Dsus2 - A - C - G etc

 

Also perhaps Man In A Box by Alice in Chains? - chorus is Em - G - A altho it may not have a C chord following

  • 2 weeks later...
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Posted

 

Originally posted by gennation


But still that 4th backcycling and II-V movement gives it it's function I believe.

 

 

Another way of looking at the II-V movement is as "extension of cadence" (a projection of the same deal realy, it just is a matter of perspective)

 

There it can be viewed not so much as a II but rather V(V) or V of V

wherein the V becomes a 'virtual I' and the "II" acts as a V of that I..and we have, basically, an authentic cadence nested into the main cadence

 

It's another appication of the circle of fifths, with that tool, we can see that the key of the I and the key with the V as the tonic is only one note different (and look at which one it is!) - they are "harmonic neighbors" -- so doing a quick slide over doesn't shake things up too much

 

I ike to think of it as a vacation...it's not an 'expedition' into alien territories, it's like home but a little different and you eventually return to your "real life"

 

It's another slick place where you can find a thing having a couple of harmonic functions (V acting as both a domonant and as a tonic..sort of 'linking' the main cadence and the extension)

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Posted

 

Originally posted by MorePaul



Another way of looking at the II-V movement is as "extension of cadence" (a projection of the same deal realy, it just is a matter of perspective)


There it can be viewed not so much as a II but rather V(V) or V of V

wherein the V becomes a 'virtual I' and the "II" acts as a V of that I..and we have, basically, an authentic cadence nested into the main cadence

 

oh i get it now... i think that's probably the simplest explanation, a cadence within a cadence. cool. like, in the key of C, D would be the fifth of C's fifth--G--so you end up doing a cadence from D to G, but then the G cadences to C. Brilliant!

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Posted

For a less technical explaination, try this.

 

Voice leading.....

 

Sometimes chords work very well together and would be considered non-functional by any chord/scale relationship theories.

 

This is usually due to voice-leading.

 

In this case (provided you use open chords with the note D on string two for the G chord) you have created a chromatic motion in the alto voice.

 

B to D to C# to C

 

The sound of a chromatic line within a progression can be very pleasing.

 

If you played the same progression but used chords that jump all over the neck it wouldn't work as well due to bad voice leading.

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