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Yet another chord question


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Posted

So, this came up on another forum and I thought I'd post it here.

 

Is there a name for the chord structure that is a standard diminished fingering but with a #5 (WRT to root of the diminished chord) up in the melody. I'm thinking of tunes like My Romance or Body & Soul. In My Romance for instance, there is a Dbdim7 with an A up top. Fingering as follows:

 

X45355

 

Would you all just consider it a dim7#5, I've not really seen that notation that I can recall, and I've read a fair amount of chord charts. In the fakebook leadsheets they just have the chord as a dim7. I guess they're seeing is as just a passing melody note and not really strong enough to call out another chord name.

 

Any thoughts??

 

Thx...

Posted

The diminished 7 chord is symmetrical, so any note could really be considered the root.

If you flip that Db chord around to use the Bb as the root, it would be a Bbdim-maj7 chord, which is a somewhat commonly used term. However, that's not what i would use here. "All the Thing You Are" uses the same thing in the end of the tune on the Bdim7 chord.

The diminished 7 chord is (in jazz) commonly used along with the diminished scale (aka octatonic scale). In that scale, there is another chord tone a whole step above every note of the dim7 chord. You can use this knowledge to create some interesting voicings by taking a standard dim7 chord and moving one of the four notes up a whole step. If you move (in relation to the root) the b5 up a scale degree, you end up with this chord we've been talking about.

There isn't really a common name for this chord, although the chord itself is very common. Typically it's just called a 'dim7' chord with a specific note as the melody.

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Posted

Thanks Pops, :)

If you flip that Db chord around to use the Bb as the root, it would be a Bbdim-maj7 chord, which is a somewhat commonly used term. However, that's not what i would use here.



Yes, I would also not use that name in this context, what with the overall root movement being Bb-C-D-Db-C, a Bb in place of Db would seem akward. As for the term dim-maj7 being a fairly commonly used one, I'm not sure I've ever seen that one either, can you point out some examples??

"All the Thing You Are" uses the same thing in the end of the tune on the Bdim7 chord.



Yeah, forgot about that one, also Corcovado, I'll probably think of a bunch more as soon as I sign off.

There isn't really a common name for this chord, although the chord itself is very common. Typically it's just called a 'dim7' chord with a specific note as the melody.



That's kind of what I figured...

Posted

Originally posted by riovine


Yes, I would also not use that name in this context, what with the overall root movement being Bb-C-D-Db-C, a Bb in place of Db would seem akward. As for the term dim-maj7 being a fairly commonly used one, I'm not sure I've ever seen that one either, can you point out some examples??

 

 

It's not something you're going to see in the average standard, although "Spring is Here" uses it as the opening chord, and that one's in the Real Book. This chord type is more common in modern tunes, particularly from people like Alan Holdsworth or some of the modern sax players from New York.

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Posted

Isin't that fingering just:

X45355

which is the same fingering I have in my first post. It doesn't seem too hard a fingering to me.

BTW, in my fakebook, the first chord they have for "Spring Is Here" is Abdim, although it does have a G up in the melody note, it's still calling out the chord as an Abdim, not a dim-maj7.

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Posted

I guess I don't understand what you are saying.

In my mind there isn't such a thing as dim7#5. The whole idea of the word diminished in chord theory is the position of a "diminished" 5th over a minor 3rd. If you raise the 5th again (ie dim7#5) you have a minor7 chord.

If you add the note A to a C#dim7 chord it becomes an A7b9 and stops functioning as dim.

Also.... I didn't mean to imply that the chord was impossible..... just that there are more comfortable fingerings.

I like this one..... exactly the same chord but the open strings make for some funky coloring.

9.x.8.0.10.0

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Posted

If you add the note A to a C#dim7 chord it becomes an A7b9 and stops functioning as dim.

 

 

I'm not really sure I agree with that, especially if the note in question (A) is the melody note. To me it seems the stronger movement is the bass line in the given context that makes me want to call it C#dim7. Also, I'm not talking about eliminating the b5, just adding the #5, although can also think of a lot of cases where I would eliminate the b5 also to create an easier fingering and still think of the overall harmony as a dim7. As Poparad pointed out, the end of All The Things, I would finger that Bdim7 as:

 

7x678x

 

to get the G in the melody (#5) and then back to the F melody (b5):

 

7x676x

 

I think of this whole part as just a Bdim7, as indicated in the fakebook. You would end up calling it a G7b9/B to Bdim7, which seems very awkward.

 

Also, in my original example of My Romance, you would make the progression from it's original of:

 

| Bbmaj7 Cmin7 | Dmin7 Dbmin7 | Cmin7 ...

 

You would change it to:

 

| Bbmaj7 Cmin7 | Dmin7 A7b9/C# | Cmin7 ...

 

Which also seems less intuitive that the Dbdim7.

 

Think about when you get past playing the head (with the G) and start soloing. When you hit that part, the bass player will more likely be thinking an A7 harmony, and of course as a chordal player or soloist, you can also blow off the b9, now you have a basically pure A7, which to me completly changes the harmonic character of that section.

 

I'm not saying there is or isin't such a thing as a dim7#5, as pointed out, I have never seen that nomenclature. But since, as also pointed out, that harmony is used in many places of very standard songs, I was wondering if there is a standard naming for this harmonic device. I'm not sure that the A7b9/C# is very satisfying to me.

 

Thanks for the input though.

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