Members groovetube66 Posted October 4, 2006 Members Posted October 4, 2006 When I solo (and I am not all that good) I tend to think of ideas like a horn player would because I used to play sax and generally get tired of hearing (my) pentatonic playing on guitar. People have told me I have good ideas but I play a lot of clams because I am constantly moving around the fretboard trying to link 7 note minor and major scale ideas together. I know I need to continue to practice my 7 note scales. But, I don't think I am using pentatonics correctly because I have heard guitar players doing very cool jazz solos and by watching their fingers I can see it is mostly pentatonics with some scale stuff mixed in. How and what should I practice to get better at using pentatonics creatively?
Members red|dragon Posted October 4, 2006 Members Posted October 4, 2006 That's because in jazz the cool notes are 9ths and 11ths. When you have a Dmin7 chord, don't play Dmin7 arpeggios and don't play Dmin pentatonic. That's not jazz. You want color. Forget about pentatonics in jazz. It's all min7, maj7, min7b5 arpeggios played off the 3rd or 5th or 7th from the chord, not the root. Also scales like Dorian will help you get a more jazz sound. Forget pentatonics. How do you know? Listen to John Coltrane. Transcribe his playing and see for yourself.
Members groovetube66 Posted October 4, 2006 Author Members Posted October 4, 2006 Thanks for the reply. I'll start working more on those arpeggios.
Members gennation Posted October 4, 2006 Members Posted October 4, 2006 Don't forget about Pentatonics. Many times in certain jazz styles they'll treat the ONE chord as a add6, add9, or add6/9...you can't really find a better scale than the Major Pentatonic for those chords. Pentatonics have been a creative vehicle for decades/centuries. And they will continue to bring inspiration to the table for a long time to come. Many guitarist learn the Minor Pentatonic or Blues scale and it's so easily accessible because you can play one scale over complete chord progressions. But as they start to play "Music" they find there's a whole lot of things being used by people. Jazz is a different beast all together as it goes at least one step further into specific uses of the Jazz Minor (Melodic Minor) scale. Check out my Advanced Pentatonic Tutorial and my Melodic Minor Primer at my lesson site.http://lessons.mikedodge.com I'll show you how those Pentatonics can be an endless amount of ideas, and I'll show you a simple and nice way to add some Melodic Minor in your playing. If you want something very deep, look through the Learn Some Common Sounds Found in Jazz. And, there's also plenty of straight theory information there too. Plus much more.
Members Virgman Posted October 4, 2006 Members Posted October 4, 2006 If you don't think pentatonics can be used in jazz read this book;"Pentatonic Khancepts" by Steve KhanWhen you play over a Dm7 chord in C you can play Dm, Em or Am pentatonic or a combined Dm-Em-Am which = Dorian mode.All diatonic arps from C sound pretty good over Dm7.If you don't believe me ask him:
Members groovetube66 Posted October 4, 2006 Author Members Posted October 4, 2006 Mike... I took a quick look and listen. I think the melodic minor tutorial will be really good for me. I need to take more time to explore your pentatonic tutorials. Thanks for the pointer to your page.
Members bardsley Posted October 5, 2006 Members Posted October 5, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon Forget pentatonics.How do you know? Listen to John Coltrane. Transcribe his playing and see for yourself. You do realize that for a large part of his career (after giant steps but before ascension in particular), Coltrane used pentatonics as probably the primary building blocks of his solos?Maybe you should do a bit more transcribing yourself?
Members alwaysharp Posted October 5, 2006 Members Posted October 5, 2006 Check out Mark Levine's Theory Book. There's some awesome stuff goin on in that book. He'll definitely give you ideas for getting the most out of your pentatonics. And there's a ton of other good stuff in there too. I love that book. I've read it a million times. I reference it all the time and I'll often go over something in it that I already studied and come away with a completely fresh idea. Check it out.
Members alwaysharp Posted October 5, 2006 Members Posted October 5, 2006 Here's a quick idea I got out of that book...say you're playing a Cmaj7, instead of playing a C pentatonic(C D E G A which is root 2nd 3rd 5th 6th), play a major pentatonic scale a whole step above. In this case a D pentatonic. This gives you D E F# A B. In relation to C these notes are the 2nd 3rd sharp11(raised 4th) 6th and major 7th. By doing this you get a much cooler, hipper sound. And you get the added bonus of being able to use fingerings and licks that you're already used to. But now they'll have a completely different sound and you'll have to treat them differently. This really helped me to break out of the "box" and hear new sounds but still play my cliched licks. Anyway, I don't want to rant to much but try that out. It should sound pretty cool.
Members gtrwiz Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 Originally posted by bardsley You do realize that for a large part of his career (after giant steps but before ascension in particular), Coltrane used pentatonics as probably the primary building blocks of his solos? Maybe you should do a bit more transcribing yourself? damn, you beat me to it!here's another great book on using pentatonics in jazz.
Members red|dragon Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 Originally posted by bardsley You do realize that for a large part of his career (after giant steps but before ascension in particular), Coltrane used pentatonics as probably the primary building blocks of his solos?Maybe you should do a bit more transcribing yourself? Nope. Sorry. If you tell people that want to learn jazz to start practicing pentatonics then they will never be able to play jazz. Just common facts. Go back to practicing gutiar noob.
Members Virgman Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 Don't diss pentatonics around here!Or else you'll be swimmin' wit de sharks!Best regards,Uncle Frank
Members alwaysharp Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 I'm gonna present the BS flag on this one. In a sense Red Dragon is correct. By this I mean, you should definitely focus on chord tones rather than rely on ANY scale. Not just the pentatonic. But where I think he's wrong, is that the pentatonic scales can very well be useful in jazz. There's a ton of situations where they're useful. And one of the most common situations IS playing over Giant Steps. Many, many great players use pentatonics on that tune. It breaks it up in way where you only think in basically three keys. Thus making it a bit easier for people to try and play through. Nonetheless, don't think that all you need to do is learn a couple pentatonic licks and your good. But don't be fooled into thinking that they're useless either.
Members Virgman Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 Good point.After all pentatonics is just the major scale minus two notes.In fact, don't tell anyone but there only 12 notes!Shhh!If all you played was pentatonics you'd sound like a "wanker".So we'll only slap RD two times on each side of his face for insulting pentatonics.
Members gtrwiz Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon Nope. Sorry. If you tell people that want to learn jazz to start practicing pentatonics then they will never be able to play jazz. Just common facts. Go back to practicing gutiar noob. um, ok, but I don't think anyone ever said to practice JUST pentatonics, but only a bonehead would tell someone to ignore such a useful tool.
Members alwaysharp Posted October 6, 2006 Members Posted October 6, 2006 wait...12 notes? Thats all?*reality shatters around me*Say it ain't so. I don't know what to do with myself now. Since there's only 12 notes, I've rethought my stance on pentatonic scales. 5 notes for one scale is way too much. From now on I'm gonna stick to...uh, two. No! Three note scales. Ya that's it. Three note scales. And these scales will be built on thirds. Almost like a triad but...well, ya triads. Only from now on I will refer to them as...tritonic scales. That's it I did it. I {censored}in did it.
Members red|dragon Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 They might be useful if people actually new the minor pentatonics in all 5 positions. Most people only know 1 and they play those same licks and patterns over and over again. The pentatonic scale is a guitar scale for {censored}ing idiots who don't practice and only have the capacity in their little minds to be able to play out of a box shape on the fret board. Sorry, but there's a lot more to music that just playing out of boxes guys.
Members gtrwiz Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon They might be useful if people actually new the minor pentatonics in all 5 positions. Most people only know 1 and they play those same licks and patterns over and over again. The pentatonic scale is a guitar scale for {censored}ing idiots who don't practice and only have the capacity in their little minds to be able to play out of a box shape on the fret board. Sorry, but there's a lot more to music that just playing out of boxes guys. Hey GrooveTube! Don't listen to this guy, he obviously doesn't have a clue.
Members red|dragon Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by gtrwiz Hey GrooveTube! Don't listen to this guy, he obviously doesn't have a clue. Too each his own. Let's hear you play some jazz. Since you're right and I'm wrong.
Members gtrwiz Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon Too each his own. Let's hear you play some jazz. Since you're right and I'm wrong. First of the title of this thread is "Getting the most out of pentatonics?". So if you aren't going try to help the guy out, go somewhere else.Second, I never claimed to be a jazz player.Third, you don't want to go there with me, check the screen name, it's no exaggeration.
Members red|dragon Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by gtrwiz First of the title of this thread is "Getting the most out of pentatonics?". So if you aren't going try to help the guy out, go somewhere else. Second, I never claimed to be a jazz player. Third, you don't want to go there with me, check the screen name, it's no exaggeration. Hey tough guy. Originally posted by groovetube66 I used to play sax and generally get tired of hearing (my) pentatonic playing on guitar. I'm giving him more options.He obviously wants to play Originally posted by groovetube66 very cool jazz solos so get the {censored} out of the thread if you don't even play jazz. Yeah I do want to go there with you. If you were any good you'd be out playing a club this Friday night, not {censored}ing posting on HC. Let's hear it guitar noob. Let's hear how {censored}ing good you are.
Members gtrwiz Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon Hey tough guy. I'm giving him more options. He obviously wants to play so get the {censored} out of the thread if you don't even play jazz. Yeah I do want to go there with you. If you were any good you'd be out playing a club this Friday night, not {censored}ing posting on HC. Let's hear it guitar noob. Let's hear how {censored}ing good you are. troll much?
Members red|dragon Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by gtrwiz troll much? if your not going to post a clip of how awesome you are, then get the {censored} out of the thread.
Members gtrwiz Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon if your not going to post a clip of how awesome you are, then get the {censored} out of the thread. Give me a minute, I'm trying to figure out how...
Members mateo150 Posted October 7, 2006 Members Posted October 7, 2006 Think of them in min 7th chord context and match/mix their fingerings with the major scale. Work on fluidly doing the mental shift from one to another to another via visualizing chords and work on good fingering/picking (lots of downstrokes if possible, check out all them Django tributaries). Play what you imagine, if you can do it with just pents, more power to ya. Takes a long time and I have to work on it a lot as well, best of luck.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.