Members chriskhs Posted October 14, 2006 Members Posted October 14, 2006 I'm having a field day here posting but... So I'm curious on how people comp for trio sessions (Guitar, Bass and Drums) I've always had the blessing of playing with good and decent piano players, but I've been thinking of branching out to trio format, which actually has been pretty fun given I have more room to make the harmony what ever I want it to be. I guess in general how do you guys comp when you are the only one comping? I'm just curious if any body has a method or concept they use.
Members groovetube66 Posted October 15, 2006 Members Posted October 15, 2006 Well I am no great shakes as a guitar player but in a guitar bass trumpet format I find the less of the chord I play the better and the more space the better even though without a piano you would think it would be the opposite. Since I don't know all the inversions I'll play the 3 and 7 or the chord as written and drop the root, or play one of those easy to play stacked 4ths if I can get away with it, with more up than down beats.
Members red|dragon Posted October 15, 2006 Members Posted October 15, 2006 You want trio? (guitar bass and drums) Listen to trios (piano bass and drums) copy pianists.
Members Terje Posted October 15, 2006 Members Posted October 15, 2006 When it comes to jazz guitar comping those old Freddie Green chords will always work better than you'd think. Remember, less is more, even in a trio and when you leave some pretty extensions out of your chords it means that the soloist is free to play them. Fredie Green chords? It's simple really, play either the root or the 5th on the low E-string, play the 3rd and the 7th on the D and G-string. What note to play on which string depends on what's easiest to play, so the 3rd is played either on the D-string or on the G-string and the same goes for the 7th. If the chord should not have a 7th in it play some other note, either the root (if you have th5th in the bass) or the 6th (if it sounds good).
Members 1001gear Posted October 16, 2006 Members Posted October 16, 2006 So the idea is to stay with incomplete 7th chords on the bottom strings?That hit the spot Terje. Simple enough for anyone to tackle and yet immediately practical and professional.
Poparad Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 Playing in a guitar trio is one of the hardest formats to play, because you are responsible for so much, as well as leading the group (endings, tempos, etc). If you listen to a lot of guitar trios (and not just the classical players, but local guys and so on), you'll notice, epsecially in the not-so-legendary players, a huge lack of chording, because it's really hard to do both soloing and chording at once. It's a totally different mindframe. This is something I've worked on a lot in the past few years. When I try to do is to hit short chord stabs inbetween phrases, end phrases with a chord voicing, use a chord voicing on longer notes within the phrase, or play entire passages using blocked chords. The last one is fun, but it reduces the rhythmic possibilities since it takes more time to switch between chords (i.e., no Paker bebop licks fully harmonized). Two excellent examples of good trio playing are Joe Pass and Jonathan Kreisberg. Although Joe mostly played solo, he does have a few trio recordings out, and he's a great example of a 'classic' approach to playing in trios. Kreisberg is a much, much more modern player and it's interesting to hear his approach. His first two discs, "Nine Stories Wide" and "Trioing" are both standards discs with a trio. He does a great job of filling out the harmony with a lot of efficient tricks. A lot of what I've learned about playing chording while soloing in a trio is from his CDs.
Members gennation Posted October 16, 2006 Members Posted October 16, 2006 I have a "Modal Grips" tutorial at my site which will allow you to think of chords in a Key and all there extensions as one in the same.http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Diatonic/ModChoGriTOC.htm It'll add movement to stagnant chords. And, it'll give some of that Stacking 4th's sound that so appearent in piano style comping. The cool thing is, f you know your Major scale up and down the fretboard, you don't have to learn anything new. Just a new application. I used this for both the Footprints backing I posted a while back, and that Stanley Clark tune I recorded and posted a while ago. Both of those were in the "Trio" setting. And, that tutorial covers them, especially the Stanley Clark. They make a great leadway into the piano/Bill Evans style of comp'ing. IOW, they're prefect for the trio settings.
Members Terje Posted October 16, 2006 Members Posted October 16, 2006 Originally posted by Poparad This is something I've worked on a lot in the past few years. When I try to do is to hit short chord stabs inbetween phrases, end phrases with a chord voicing, use a chord voicing on longer notes within the phrase, or play entire passages using blocked chords. The last one is fun, but it reduces the rhythmic possibilities since it takes more time to switch between chords (i.e., no Paker bebop licks fully harmonized). I haven't really heard you play and I have nothing against what you're doing but I'd like to point out that there is a risk of making things way too complicated. Rmember that even with "just" a good solid bass line as a backing you can simply play a single note line on top. There are There are trios with a horn player as the leading instrument, with no chordal backing whatsoever, it can sound very open and musical.
Members astring Posted October 16, 2006 Members Posted October 16, 2006 Originally posted by chriskhs I'm having a field day here posting but...So I'm curious on how people comp for trio sessions (Guitar, Bass and Drums) I've always had the blessing of playing with good and decent piano players, but I've been thinking of branching out to trio format, which actually has been pretty fun given I have more room to make the harmony what ever I want it to be.I guess in general how do you guys comp when you are the only one comping? I'm just curious if any body has a method or concept they use. http://www.amazon.com/Green-Street-Grant/dp/B00006C77B/sr=8-8/qid=1161035873/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8/002-6132636-2064801?ie=UTF8
Members Brewski Posted October 16, 2006 Members Posted October 16, 2006 you guys just piss me off!! I would like to really understand the instrument - learn to play all kinds of music - but I just can't get the voicing. I think the thing I lack is the right musical knowledge and understanding - I spend more time trying to warm up to play some runs than playing music these days because either I can't hear what I'm supposed to play or I just don;t know what to play! anyone waqnna volunteer to teach an old hack how to play?
Members chriskhs Posted October 17, 2006 Author Members Posted October 17, 2006 Originally posted by Poparad Playing in a guitar trio is one of the hardest formats to play, because you are responsible for so much, as well as leading the group (endings, tempos, etc).If you listen to a lot of guitar trios (and not just the classical players, but local guys and so on), you'll notice, epsecially in the not-so-legendary players, a huge lack of chording, because it's really hard to do both soloing and chording at once. It's a totally different mindframe. Hey there, Popard I think what you said is definetly true... when I first tried to do improvised solo guitar I had the habit of always playing the chord on exactly the first down beat, which is a pretty bad habit to get into. actually I just got done rehearsing with the trio and I've noticed that soloing or just in general playing in a trio is a lot like solo guitar. Just playing too much chords or playing just single lines sound either too dense or too naked. Oh and in response to Gennation's suggestion... I really do like doing fourth voicings since it is probably the most intuitive way to grab different chords, but I've been trying to avoid it recently because I've noticed that often times I over do it. By that I mean on a song that is more modal it works so beautifully but on many songs that are more in the swing tradition it could be little bit too much... maybe I wasn't doing as proficient as I can but I noticed this when I heard a recording of me, bassist and a vocalist playing "Every Time we say good bye" about a year or two ago. Since then I've stop using fourth voicings unless it is like a passing chord (if you have a four note voicing on the high e string to the g string, you can sticking in quartal voicings in between a different chord which I think is nice...) In response to Terje, I really do like freedie green style of comping given that John Pizzarelli is one of my favorite guitar players. At the same time I'm trying to strive for other ways to comp then the freedie green style... but i do agree that freedie green style is universal and can work on most settings and most tunes.
Members Terje Posted October 17, 2006 Members Posted October 17, 2006 Originally posted by chriskhs In response to Terje, I really do like freedie green style of comping given that John Pizzarelli is one of my favorite guitar players. At the same time I'm trying to strive for other ways to comp then the freedie green style... but i do agree that freedie green style is universal and can work on most settings and most tunes. Together with a bass those Freddie Green chords will sound amazingly full. Together with a bass you can get away with just playing the 3rd and the 7th and depending on how it's done it can also sound amazingly full. I do this all the time, because I comp on a balalajka and not a guitar, I have only three strings. A teacher showed me how to comp using just the 3rd and the 7th of each chord and then he said "Together with a bass you could comp like this all night"... and he's right.
Members gennation Posted October 17, 2006 Members Posted October 17, 2006 Originally posted by Brewski you guys just piss me off!! I would like to really understand the instrument - learn to play all kinds of music - but I just can't get the voicing. I think the thing I lack is the right musical knowledge and understanding - I spend more time trying to warm up to play some runs than playing music these days because either I can't hear what I'm supposed to play or I just don;t know what to play! anyone waqnna volunteer to teach an old hack how to play? I've been teaching you for years, you just only found out today http://lessons.mikedodge.comOver 30 years playing and over 20 years teaching. Have at them.The Beginners to Advanced Series is a great way to start. Take it from the first subject and work your way through them in order.The On Topic section will show you some things you won't get elsewhere.Have fun!
Members groovetube66 Posted October 17, 2006 Members Posted October 17, 2006 When you are playing the Freddie Green chords do you play the root? I imagine it might be OK since the bass might be walking on some other note that isn't the root.
Members bardsley Posted October 18, 2006 Members Posted October 18, 2006 Freddie green chords are chords in all inversions, but all on the 6th, 4th and 3rd strings. Playing root inversions is not nearly as bad as people think. Monk did it all the time. And, you know why the double bass is named that way? Because it doubles the bass line in the orchestra (generally an octave lower). You might not want to always do it, but never worry about sometimes playing the root note in the bass.
Members red|dragon Posted October 18, 2006 Members Posted October 18, 2006 What Freddie Green album best demonstrates his comping?
Poparad Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon What Freddie Green album best demonstrates his comping? He didn't record records under his own name. His entire career was with the Count Basie Orchestra, so check out Basie records with Freddie on guitar.
Members chriskhs Posted October 18, 2006 Author Members Posted October 18, 2006 kind of random but to my knowledge freedie green only really fretted the 6th string/5th String and the 3rd sting (so low E/A and G)... or at least according to Pizzarellis. This I think sounds lot better than adding the 4th string into the equation.
Members red|dragon Posted October 18, 2006 Members Posted October 18, 2006 Originally posted by Poparad He didn't record records under his own name. His entire career was with the Count Basie Orchestra, so check out Basie records with Freddie on guitar. What CBO record demonstrates him at his best?
Poparad Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Originally posted by red|dragon What CBO record demonstrates him at his best? Anything, really. Basie's band didn't do bad records.
Members bardsley Posted October 18, 2006 Members Posted October 18, 2006 Yeah, the 4th string isn't exactly necessary, but I tend to get all three notes with my left hand, and then only strum the lowest two. It just means that if I decide to add that note, it's in my fingering, if that makes any sense. As for the Basie records, the whole "Freddie Green" comping thing has become its own phenomenon. It's rare that you can actually really hear what Freddie's doing in terms of voicings. His was more of a rhythmic element, giving the band the good 4 feel. But a lot of guitarists continue to use the same voicings, in much different settings, and they've become known as the Freddie Green voicings. It basically means comping on the bass strings, rather than the treble, and therefore is a little more rhythmic, and more solid in general. Jim hall uses these concepts a lot. Listen to him on Undercurrent and Intermodulation, both duo albums with Bill Evans (Undercurrent is a must have). I don't listen to much Jim Hall, but he does what he does like no other.
Members Terje Posted October 18, 2006 Members Posted October 18, 2006 Originally posted by bardsley His was more of a rhythmic element, giving the band the good 4 feel. And that my friends, is what jazz comping is all about, rhythm.
Members Brewski Posted October 19, 2006 Members Posted October 19, 2006 GENNATION: "I've been teaching you for years, you just only found out today http://lessons.mikedodge.com Over 30 years playing and over 20 years teaching. Have at them. The Beginners to Advanced Series is a great way to start. Take it from the first subject and work your way through them in order. The On Topic section will show you some things you won't get elsewhere. Have fun!" Thanks and I'll start working on this when I get a chance.
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