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jazz improv chord changes


jjang1993

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Posted

over some jazz progressions, how do i know to change scales when the chords change. i know everything about diatonic substitution and key centers.

in the jazz standard Satin Doll, the chords are

Dmin G7 Emin A7 Amin D7 Aflatminor Dflat7 Cmaj F7 Emin A7

this song is in C major

 

i heard theres chords called secondary dominants. the dominants of all minor chords can be used in the composition. i still dont understand this. can anybody explain this to me?

 

also in some jazz tunes there are augmented chords and fully dimished chords.

 

from my understanding chords in major scales are

Maj7-min7-min7-Maj7-Dom7-min7-min7flattedfifth

 

how can full diminished and augmented chords be in a song if they dont appear in hte chords in the major scale?

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Posted

D7 if played in the key of C is a secondary dominant. ("the V of V.") It leads to G7 which leads to C.

You can use any chord or cluster in a song, whether it's in the key/scale or not!
Not promising it will be pleasing but there's no law against it.

Suggestion: download free pdfs from Jamey Aebersold --
these explain some jazz theory:
http://www.aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc
click free jazz

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Posted

First of all, stop playing Saitn Doll! It's one of the crappiest jazz standards ever written. No real melody there, just a "hip" chord progression.

And what's happening with the chords? Nothing really, you're just stepping outside for a little while with the Abm and Db7, they're tritones subs and it could have been Dm7 G7 instead.

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Posted

Originally posted by Terje

First of all, stop playing Saitn Doll! It's one of the crappiest jazz standards ever written. No real melody there, just a "hip" chord progression.


And what's happening with the chords? Nothing really, you're just stepping outside for a little while with the Abm and Db7, they're tritones subs and it could have been Dm7 G7 instead.

 

 

How can you say this? With all due respect, this is really not good advice. Satin Doll is a great tune and good for beginners to play. I know some people would groan if you call it, but its really not the song's fault. Listen to Ella sing it - and don't blame the tune for all the bad perfomances it has inspired.

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Posted

I think there was already a discussion on whether Satin Doll is a good tune or not, but I've been thinking about that topic for a while and realized few things.

I think the main conflict is about the definition of melody or what the term melodic means. If melodic to some people means something that a singer could sing. To some people, melodic can mean some smooth line that doesn't quite push the boundaries of our ears.

Some people say that the most recognizable motif in history of music is either the Jaws theme or the 5th symphony by Beethoven. But is the 5th Symphony really melodic? It's closer to say Satin Doll then say Round Midnight in my opinion, since Satin Doll uses a motif and just uses it again and again with variations, pretty similar to what the 5th symphony does.

Also Girl from Ipanema does pretty much the same thing as Satin Doll. Many people claim that Girl from Ipanema is one of the most beautiful songs in existance, but it also is based on motifs that develop over the given chord progression.

On the flip side there are tunes like Wave by the same composer that has absolutely no motif at all, and this song also is considered to be a gem in music history.

Regardless, I guess my point is that arguing whether Satin Doll is melodic or not has been already done and every single time the discussion reaches the same conclusion- everybody's taste is different.

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Posted

Originally posted by EDS

How can you say this? With all due respect, this is really not good advice. Satin Doll is a great tune and good for beginners to play. I know some people would groan if you call it, but its really not the song's fault. Listen to Ella sing it - and don't blame the tune for all the bad perfomances it has inspired.

 

 

Just because Ella could turn it into something fantastic does not mean it is in itself a great tune, sorry. It is not a good melody. It is extremely boring.

 

It is a cool chord progression, I'll give it that. That seems to have been the reason for writing it and I can think of worse reasons for writing a tune.

 

It is not a good tune for beginners. It's typically one of those tunes a beginner might think "hey, this one looks easy enough" but that's a huge mistake. It's like thinking that it's easier for a beginner to play the blues than it is to play "other and more melodic" jazz standards, like Nearness Of You or Body And Soul.

 

It is very difficult to produce something that's interesting on a tune like So What, takes an experienced improviser to do that, or a very lucky and/or inspired beginner while You Don't Know What Love Is tends to play itself and at the same time open doors for new ideas.

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Posted

Originally posted by chriskhs

I think the main conflict is about the definition of melody or what the term melodic means. If melodic to some people means something that a singer could sing.

 

 

The danger with that definition is that we can end up with a long list of tunes that are technically easy to sing but boring to listen to. BTW, Satin Doll isn't that easy to sing. Try it yourself and you'll notice. Sing it a capella for your friends and see if they think it's a beautiful tune. Now try Stormy Weather! Or why not Skylark? Perhaps not as easy to nail all the notes in but if you do then that's all you'll have to do.

 

To me a good melody is a melody that can stand on its own without the harmony. In fact, most really great melodies tend to outline the harmony without being too predictive. Like for instance All Of Me or Autumn Leaves. A good melody also tends to play itself in the sense that you really don't need to add anythying.

 

Play Round Midnight, just the melody line. Play it as it's written and put as much feeling into it as you can. Now try the same with Satin Doll and you should be able to hear what I mean. A master performer can of course turn Satin Doll into something fantastic but that doesn't change the fact that the tune itself is rather boring.

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Posted

Originally posted by Terje

Just because Ella could turn it into something fantastic does not mean it is in itself a great tune, sorry. It is not a good melody. It is extremely boring.


It is a cool chord progression, I'll give it that. That seems to have been the reason for writing it and I can think of worse reasons for writing a tune.


It is not a good tune for beginners. It's typically one of those tunes a beginner might think "hey, this one looks easy enough" but that's a huge mistake. It's like thinking that it's easier for a beginner to play the blues than it is to play "other and more melodic" jazz standards, like Nearness Of You or Body And Soul.


It is very difficult to produce something that's interesting on a tune like So What, takes an experienced improviser to do that, or a very lucky and/or inspired beginner while You Don't Know What Love Is tends to play itself and at the same time open doors for new ideas.

 

 

Well, if you've decided that Satin Doll is not a good tune, I don't think there's much point discussing it anymore.

 

You're correct, of course, that it is very challenging to produce something interesting over an extended static harmony as in So What, but how can you really think that a beginner would have an easier time with Body and Soul? The harmonic content of a tune like that does provide inherent harmonic interest in an improvised solo, but most beginners would not be able to get a handle those changes.

 

Comparing "more melodic jazz standards" to the blues seems irrelevant - judging from what you wrote, you're comparing melodic interest to harmonic interest, apples to oranges. Since when does the blues progression not afford itself to the construction of strong melodies?

 

Especially with guitarists, the blues progression is a good place to start, since many of them are familiar with it, and you can incorporate the familiar blues scale for a more horizontal approach. Perhaps you are approaching jazz improvisation by improvising off a melody rather than a harmony. This is perfectly valid of course, but it might be helpful to make this clear.

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Posted

haha, terje and satin doll. they should have a boxing match...

satin doll... its just like any other tune... if you are a good jazz musicians, youll make it sound good :-)

satin doll IS one of the great standards. it might not be my favorite, but it has its history.

but still, not my favorite.

and i was one of the kids who made the mistake of early on, picking that tune, and trying to learn it. ended up just doing a chord melody for it. the tune plays it self, but its what you do with it... have fun with satin doll. compeltely change the rhythm! make it new...

jazz blues is where every jazz musicians should start in my opinion. and im pretty sure every one would agree.

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