Members daFunkyUnit Posted January 6, 2007 Members Posted January 6, 2007 A lot of discussion here in TLL has been about playing scales, and mode theory, and many here have embraced the use of the CAGED method, playing scales using essentially what is 5 "forms". That method makes a lot of sense to me, so I practice it pretty regularly. My question is, now regarding the 3-note-per-string method, which is used Mark Sternal's Total Scales Techniques and Applications book, is that method better? I could see if you want to do serious riffing/shredding then you'd want to do the 3-note-per-string patterns, but how do you easily remember the patterns? Do you guys just remember by rote all 7 positions? well, hope that post makes sense....
Poparad Posted January 6, 2007 Posted January 6, 2007 I use both, depending on the situation. Learning the 7 position patterns requires the same process that you use to learn the 5 position patterns.
Members alwaysharp Posted January 6, 2007 Members Posted January 6, 2007 I would say that in a sense, yes. I mean, if you learn G major(ionian) then A dorian, B phrygian, C lydian, D mixolydian, E natural minor and F# locrian, well you just learned all of those scales over the entire fretboard. Assuming that you started each one on the root and did the three note per string method. Since, afterall, all these scales or, modes, have all the same notes. One thing I like to do is to play the scales on one string at a time. This gives you a pretty clear visual of the fretboard. Well, it does for me anyway. Also, to have a clear understanding of diatonic chord/scale relationships really helps. Say, key of G, G maj7-G ionian, A minor7-A dorian so on and so on. Let's see if this makes sense. Say you're vamping on A minor7. You could play C lydian in the 8th position using the three note per string method and you're really just playing A dorian, or G major. Now, your ear will naturally help you to treat these modes differently. Always remember chord tones. On that same note, you could play C major in that same position and you would now be playing A natural minor. I know my response is a bit long and convuluted so I'll try to rephrase as simply as I can. Learn diatonic chord/scale relationships and it will really open up the fretboard to you. It did more for me than just rote learning patterns. It might do the same for you.
Members racerxwannabe Posted January 6, 2007 Members Posted January 6, 2007 practice both...at the end of the day you just want to know where the notes are. i tend to work more around 3 note per string cause they're more fluid to play...but i initially learnt the caged positions and knew nothing else for a long time so i know both. and i glad i do... practice them on single strings too, all the way down the neck. and practice saying the notes out loud sometimes, saying them up and down the scale is pretty important...i tend to do a key a day.
Members red|dragon Posted January 7, 2007 Members Posted January 7, 2007 both. but normally - caged = jazz method, 3 note per string = rock method. learn both. and then learn scales up and down 1 string.
Members Chunk Posted January 7, 2007 Members Posted January 7, 2007 check out plane talk by kirk lorange. you'll never have to think "which scale?" again. http://www.thatllteachyou.com
Members piesore Posted January 8, 2007 Members Posted January 8, 2007 After reading Fretboard Logic I filter everything I know through the CAGED method, but now I've gotten pretty familiar with it, I'll use alternate fingerings like the one you mentioned which cross the chord forms. I think you have to be comfortable enough to visualize the CAGED format on the fretboard before you can change Fretboard Logic's recommended fingerings.
Members daFunkyUnit Posted January 8, 2007 Author Members Posted January 8, 2007 anyone know where you can find the 7 3-note-per-string patterns laid out in grid form similar to the 5 CAGED patterns? theoretically, I could write it out myself, but, i'm lazy....
Members digiology2 Posted January 8, 2007 Members Posted January 8, 2007 Originally posted by red|dragon both. but normally - caged = jazz method, 3 note per string = rock method. learn both. and then learn scales up and down 1 string. funny thing, my guitar teacher who plays jazz dismissed the CAGED system outright
Members red|dragon Posted January 8, 2007 Members Posted January 8, 2007 Originally posted by digiology2 funny thing, my guitar teacher who plays jazz dismissed the CAGED system outright Then I guess your teacher is just better than ever other teacher. He must know things that we don't.
Members alwaysharp Posted January 8, 2007 Members Posted January 8, 2007 Originally posted by digiology2 funny thing, my guitar teacher who plays jazz dismissed the CAGED system outright Didn't Joe Pass come up with the CAGED system? I'm not sure, but I think he did and Joe's a legend. Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post is that I personally, don't think in terms of scales period. I think about the basic arpeggios and how I could embellish them. Or how I can superimpose them on top of other chords. Just another approach you might want to check out.
Members racerxwannabe Posted January 9, 2007 Members Posted January 9, 2007 Originally posted by alwaysharp Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post is that I personally, don't think in terms of scales period. I think about the basic arpeggios and how I could embellish them. Or how I can superimpose them on top of other chords. Just another approach you might want to check out. i've heard i hundred jazz dudes say that...but where do those arpeggios come from? within in the scale...
Members junkit_boy Posted January 9, 2007 Members Posted January 9, 2007 The 3 note per string scales are great for finger picking economy because they share the same down stroke when climbing up the scale between strings and the same upstroke when decending.... essentially thats the only difference.
Members alwaysharp Posted January 12, 2007 Members Posted January 12, 2007 i've heard i hundred jazz dudes say that...but where do those arpeggios come from? within in the scale... Not at all. Those arpeggios come from chord tones. That's what they are. Like I may or may not, have said before I'll embellish these tones in different ways. Or superimpose different arpeggios over different chords. But it's a very different mindset than just running scales. It's been sort of a natural progression for me. I used to basically just run scales. Then it was scales but focusing on chord tones. That is until recently, now I've noticed that I don't think in terms of scales much, if at all. To be completely honest, I don't even really think chord tones either. Now I just think about the tune. I mean, I think of the changes. Say C-7/F7/Bbmaj7. I don't think anything more than that right there. I just know the chords and then play what I want to play over them. Huh. Does that make any kind of sense?
Members junkit_boy Posted January 12, 2007 Members Posted January 12, 2007 True..not aruging on that point..I think the biggest crutch with most guitarist is just limiting themselves in "seeing" patterns..and not the intervals on what makes the chord or arpeggio what they are. 3-note-per-string way is nice to see how one cans mold two of the CAGED scale shapes into one pattern
Members burncycle Posted January 15, 2007 Members Posted January 15, 2007 I dont know what the '3 note/string' method is...but my old jazz teacher taught me to learn each major scale starting on any note of the scale for all 6 strings. So, for instance I would start in an Emaj scale in open E, then play it across the fretboard using the notes on each string without changing positions. Then, start on the second note of the Emaj scale (F#), and play it across, and so on. That way you always know where you are in a key no matter what note you are on or where you are on the fretboard. I have a feeling this is what others are talking about. It is an exhaustive process, but now I can frolic around the fretboard in any major key, and of course any mode since modes= corresponding maj scales..I probably shouldnt say 'frolic' though..... lol
Members burncycle Posted January 15, 2007 Members Posted January 15, 2007 always sharp--I know what you mean. My old jazz teacher told me to not worry so much with where you are and to what mode or scale you need to switch to, especally in Jazz. Ive since over the course of the past two years, am starting to get what he means. He used to tell me to recognize changes, predominantly the obvious ones (2-5-1's,etc.) and just to realize that unless you are making a drastic key change (say, Amaj7 to Ebmaj7) you can stay in a certain mode or scale but just add/accentuate the certain notes around what your playing to match the chord change. He would always remind me when I got frustrated that while there are a plethra of chords/progression possibilities, there are only 12 notes, and only a couple notes here and there seperate the lot of them...hehe.. I guess you could call those chord shapes mixed with scales/modes...
Members eddidaz Posted January 17, 2007 Members Posted January 17, 2007 Has anyone got a link explaining this method? I'm getting kind of confused by this thread.
Members Gino NY Posted January 18, 2007 Members Posted January 18, 2007 Quick question regarding the 3 note per string scale. Is it reasonable to practice these in the lower registers wherein the stretches would be 1st fret, 3rd fret, 5 fret, etc. Or...would a different pattern most likely be used in this area of the fretboard. The reason I ask is that I'd hate to submit my hand to such misery if it's for something that's not going to be used. Thanks...1st post...
Members Dawn Posted January 19, 2007 Members Posted January 19, 2007 Not at all. Those arpeggios come from chord tones. That's what they are. Like I may or may not, have said before I'll embellish these tones in different ways. Or superimpose different arpeggios over different chords. But it's a very different mindset than just running scales. It's been sort of a natural progression for me. I used to basically just run scales. Then it was scales but focusing on chord tones. That is until recently, now I've noticed that I don't think in terms of scales much, if at all. To be completely honest, I don't even really think chord tones either. Now I just think about the tune. I mean, I think of the changes. Say C-7/F7/Bbmaj7. I don't think anything more than that right there. I just know the chords and then play what I want to play over them. Huh. Does that make any kind of sense? Makes all the sense in the world. One of the most important sayings in the Lead Guitar world is to learn your scales and then forget them. Problem is too many players learn their scales then rely upon them for their lead patterns forgetting about phrasing and melody completely. Most scale players become shredoholics. It's essential to know your scales but once you do focus on phrasing and your knowledge you have attained, NOT your scales. This is what sets you apart from 99% of the guitarists out there.
Members alwaysharp Posted January 20, 2007 Members Posted January 20, 2007 This is true. But I should say this, I'm not a shredoholic. I can hold my own. I can stream some pretty fast 1/8th notes, triplets whatever but, if I was wanting to shred super fast I would definitely use the "3 note per string" method. I think that's the only way you really can play 1/16th notes at 200bpm. Your mind can't think that fast. Sorry. I don't care who you are. At those speeds you have to have some patterns that your fingers are familiar with and are relatively easy to play. But, then again, you can play your arpeggios that fast if you practice like a madman. I don't know. Learn your scales inside out. Learn them every which way and all the relationships with their respective chords. When you have a solid understanding of the chords and scales you'll just play what you want. Instead of a "lick" or "pattern" that you've worked on forever. And like Joe Pass said, those licks or patterns never work anyway. They never quite fit right. So don't waste your time on 'em. Anyway, I digress. I have to go. Sorry if this seems a bit non-sensical.
Members Dimebag666 Posted January 21, 2007 Members Posted January 21, 2007 I never knew how to learn scales so i broke up the fret board into three areas and naturally ended up using three notes per string to learn them. I found this really easy and CAGED in my mind isnt as useful. I would learn from the a string root, the e string root and the last note from three notes from the e string root covering the whole fret board. This would get it all in my head and then after I'd go back and play from every note on the E string. Maybe a bit wierd but it works for me lol.
Members Dawn Posted January 21, 2007 Members Posted January 21, 2007 Your mind can't think that fast. Sorry. I don't care who you are. At those speeds you have to have some patterns that your fingers are familiar with and are relatively easy to play. But, then again, you can play your arpeggios that fast if you practice like a madman. I don't know. Learn your scales inside out. Learn them every which way and all the relationships with their respective chords. When you have a solid understanding of the chords and scales you'll just play what you want. Instead of a "lick" or "pattern" that you've worked on forever. That's a good point. I've talked to shred masters and that's exactly what they ALL said. I find that most shredders concentrate on the minor scales as well. Melodic, Harmonic, Hungarian and so on. Many players and teachers have also told me that it is harder to play slowly than fast. I agree with this statement completely. ...
Members Zeplygimus Posted January 22, 2007 Members Posted January 22, 2007 I play chromatics all day. I'm sure there might be scale notes in there somewhere.
Members TheTeacher Posted February 19, 2007 Members Posted February 19, 2007 I don't know who came up with the CAGED system, and I don't really care, but there are only three source shapes, not five. If you look at the C shape, you will see that the D shape is an alteration of it. To make the D shape, the 3rd scale note on the fourth string of the C shape has been lowered to a Root and the Root on string five of the C shape has been lowered to a 5th. The G shape is nothing more than the A shape, again altered. To make the G shape, the Root that was on string five in the A shape has been moved up to a 3rd, and the 5th scale notes on string one and six from the A shape have been moved up to Roots. If you know your scale steps, this is obvious. So the source shapes are ACE! You, too can be an ACE! One more note, I always ask players, whom I consider to be berrer than I am, to give me one sentence that they think will help me. A friend of Jazz legend Johnny Smith answered this way: "You know those scales that go straight across the neck?" I answered yes. He said, "Avoid those like the plague and play the neck diagonally up from string six to string one." A great example is the G minor pentatonic being played from fret one on string six to fret ten on string one. TheTeacher http://www.ellismusiclessons.com
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