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Posted

okay i feel confused with all the music theory. so first of all. if there is a chord progression, i really don't know what scales to use to play over those chords. also, when i try improvising, there isn't much life to my playing, like i do bends and slides and stuff but it sounds boring. i don't know what to do. and i need to know some more interesting chords then 7th chords, diminished, major and minor. interestingly enough, i don't even know what scales to use over the diminished and 7th chords. can anyone help me?

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Posted

Chords are built from notes within scales. Scale are built with Intervals. Once you know what chord, and how many chords, can be built from one scale you start to understand "Keys" and how the chords scales work. This is most peoples first major step into understanding music theory. Without it, you're missing some important information.

 

If you don't understand the fundamentals, you'll always have a difficult time understanding things. If you are interested in the "theory" behind these things it's best to take a much needed step backwards before you start looking for "more interesting chords then 7th chords, diminished, major and minor".

 

Those chords are are the building blocks of probably all the music you've heard ever. Understanding and applying the fundamentals is key.

 

Take some time this weekend and work through my Beginner to Advanced Series at my lesson site: http://lessons.mikedodge.com

 

Start at the Intervals subject and work your way down through each subject. You will find it organized to the point where one subject picks up where the last one left off.

 

Then look at some things you play all the time and try to explain it to yourself, or come back here and give us an analysis. This will help you apply theory to the playing.

 

This is all information people study for years. So, take your time. You ARE NOT going to be a theory monster in a couple of days. It's takes time, patience, comprehension, and application...and just a lot of doing these things So, stick with it, it's NOT impossible.

 

Just do it for a weekend and I'm sure you'll understand more than you do now.

 

Have fun!

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Posted

Well first, do you know the modes.
C D E F G A B C is the c major scale

CEG is a major chord so some write I Major
DFA is minor or ii minor
EGB is minor or iii (the lowercase numeral can stand for minor)
FAC is major or IV (the capital numeral can stand for Major)
GBD is Gmajor or V
ACE is Aminor or vi
BDF is Bdiminished or viidim

all major scales follow this pattern: I ii iii IV V vi viidim

the scales you build by starting on different scale degrees are the modes
CDEFGABC is ionian
DEFGABCD is dorian
EFGABCDE is phrygian
FGABCDEF is lydian
GABCDEFG is mixolydian
ABCDEFGA is aeolian
BCDEFGAB is locrian

ionian will create the chords maj, maj7,maj9,maj11,maj13
dorian will create min,min7,min9,min11,min13
phrygian makes min,min7,min7b9,min11b9,min11b13b9
lydian makes maj,maj7,maj9,maj9#11,maj13#11
mixolydian makes maj,7,9,11,13
aeolian makes min,min7,min9,min11,min11b13
locrian makes dim,m7b5,m7b5b9,m11b5b9,11b5b9b13

now learn above in all keys across all positions

then go nuts!

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Posted

I don't think he is playing in one key, otherwise he wouldn't be confused :)

If you play a progression entirely made of chords from the same key (e.g. what cubist guitar says), then you can just play the scale of that key over ALL those chords. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that you play a different mode over each chord? Maybe, but the point is that you're still using the same 7 notes.

Instead it gets much more complicated when your progression features chords that do NOT belong to the same key, and let's face it... when this happens you get a WAY more interesting piece of music!

In that case, you may:

(a) address each of those chord individually: but each chord can "support" a large number of scales! E.g. if the chord is a 7th chord, it is then made of 4 notes, so any scale that has those 4 notes would "fit"

(b) address all chords as a whole: perhaps not all of them are so "off" with each other, maybe only 1 chord is "out of key"; you can then figure out which of the possible scales of the "off chord" is most similar to the scale of all the others, and use that when the song goes to that chord

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Posted

Let me try to make an example. Please correct me if I'm wrong :thu:

Let's consider only natural scales, not melodic minor or harmonic minor.

The major (Ionian) mode is our starting point: WWHWWWH is the series of intervals. If we use the C note as the root, our scale is C D E F G A B.

When we build chords for this key, we use only notes from the scale, and no others. Consider only triads (chord root + 3rd + 5th), and we end up with the 7 basic chords of the key of C major:

C
Dm
Em
F
G
Am
Bdim

Each of these triad chords (except Bdim) can be found in other keys as well. For example the C major triad is the 1st degree here, but it can be the 4th degree in another key (the key of G) and the 5th degree in another one (the key of F). This means that we could use 3 different major/ionian scales on top of a C chord:

C ionian : C D E F G A B
F ionian (= C mixolydian) : F G A Bb C D E F
G ionian (= C lydian) : G A B C D E F#

Let's now take a song which uses these two chords only: C and E, both major. Two very easy chords, but how many natural scales have both these chords? None. That means we cannot play the same scale on top of both.

What could be a good choice for two scales (one to play over C and the other over E) then, when each of the two chords "support" 3 possible scales?

Let's check the valid scales for E as well:

E ionian : E F# G# A B C# D#
A ionian (= E mixolydian) : A B C# D E F# G#
B ionian (= E lydian) : B C# D# E F# G# A#

You could just play C ionian over the C chord and E ionian over the E chord of course.
But another interesting choice would be to play C lydian over the C chord and E mixolydian over the E chord, because this way you are using two scales that only differ from each other by two notes: C/C# and G/G#. This might result in a softer contrast.

That's my 2cp, and sorry for any mistake :p

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Posted

Yes, a good understanding of Keys is a must. It's the 'theoretical' way of know what Key your in.

 

Forget about all those mode names for a while, they cause WHY to much unneeded confusion for guitarists. Learning the chords in the Key are GREAT. Learning chord relationships in Key's is the next great thing. Without that it's difficult to know what Key you're in, in when you're not in that Key anymore...then what Key did you go to, etc...

 

At this point you need more of the essential fundamentals than to start worrying about modes. if you bypass the fundamentals, there's good chance you are still going to be asking the same questions in the years to come.

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Posted

I would say that the most fundamental concept is the following:

A song (or one section of it) is made of notes, sometimes played simultaneously (chords) and sometimes played individually.

All notes of the song/section taken together are our KEY or SCALE.

When we're composing or improvising, we assume we do that in a certain key, until we decide to move to another "section" (which is called modulating).

As long as we are within a certain section, normally we use ONLY notes that belong to the current scale, which thus define a sort-of "set of available notes". That applies not only to notes played individually, but also to chords: ALL chords that can be played during a section are made only by notes from the current scale.

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Posted

Then things may be confusing because in a certain way it is up to you, and to how you define what are your "sections".

If you have a chord progression (even 2 chords only, over and over), you can decide that the whole song is just one long section.

Because you're playing those 2 chords in this section, then AT LEAST all the notes of each chord belong to your key (there can be other).

So technically you could just do the following:
1) write down all notes that make up each chord (e.g. C = C + E + G, E = E + G# + B)
2) play those notes only during this section (C + E + G + G# + B), call this your "scale"

Although there is no true problem in doing this, most western music is based on the natural scale, which is the scale defined by the sequence of intervals WWHWWWH.
So if the cannot "fit" the notes of your current "scale" into this pattern of intervals, the whole section will sound odd and non-musical, because it's not what we're used to hear.

In case of a progression of C and E major, the usual choice is instead to consider the 2 chords separate sections, and use different scale for each. This will result in a song which changes continually between two different "sounds", but each of them sounds quite "stable" or familiar by itself.

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Posted

One fundamental aspect is the song...THAT's where it should start.

 

But, to analyze a song through theory is a different aspect all together.

 

You do not need ANY fundamental theory knowledge to play a song. You DO need ALL the fundamentals to pick it apart using theories.

 

Many people play songs for years, they learn scales written on fretboard diagrams for years, beofre ever asking "Why"....you can learn songs by ear, you can learn them from others, you can learn them from reading them...but when it comes to understanding them theory-wise...you NEED the fundamentals.

 

On your quest remember this...Music came first, theories came second.

 

Theory is a lingo, it's a way to communication to yourself and others. It's helps people talk the same language.

 

Music embodies the instrument, the notes, AND your ability and expressions. Theory embodies nothing but the notes and their organizations as it relates to what you, or someone else, has played.

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