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Having the worst time writing riffs in harmonic minor...


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Posted

So, we're sort of writing a song with a really disco style bassline (1,8 1,8 1,8 --you know, octaves). The progression is A, G#, B, C, B...

 

...and because of that G#, I'm WAY thrown off. Natural minor isn't hard for me because I can cop out with pentatonic riffs.

 

Licks in 'A' Harmonic minor just sound cheesey to me. Are there any other alternatives?

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Posted

Well for starters your second chord G# major contains a D# for the root. D# is not in A harmonic minor.

 

2nd the chord B major contains a D# and an F#, which neither are in A harmonic minor.

 

Unless you ment to do that because you wanted to add some kind of tension. I'm guessing you weren't. So no wonder it's not sounding good. You're using chords that arn't in the key of A harmonic minor.

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Posted

Try using the correct chords:

 

Amin----------A, C, E

Bminb5--------B, D, F

Cmaj#5-------C, E, G#

Dmin----------D, F, A

Emaj----------E, G# B

Fmaj----------F, A, C

G#minb5------G# B D

 

Your song might sound better.

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Posted

Like I said, it's just an octave bassline--no chords. Ex: A, high A, A, high A, G#, high G#, G#, high G#, and so forth...

 

As you can tell, I'm not very experienced in theory and wouldn't really know where to start...

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Posted

Ok, I'll have to give that a shot. I really appreciate the help...

 

I just hope that can match all the pentatonic minor stuff we're usually doing. I mean, we're a rock band...

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Posted

Historically the Harmonic minor is knows as a "heavy metal" scale.

 

Yeah, Give it a shot. Just let the bass drone an A and practice the scale over it.

 

See if you can get your hands on the Vinnie Moore instructional videos. He goes over how to use the A harmonic minor scale. I think his chord progression was something like this:

 

----------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------

-3----------5-----------6----------7----------

-3----------5-----------7----------7----------

-1----------3-----------4----------5----------

 

Play those chords in a rock fashion. Pay particular attention to the 3 chord. This is an Amin chord progression, but on top of the 3rd chord you play A harmonic minor then go back to regular A min (C major) for the last chord. To give yourself more time to play something in A Harmonic Minor, spread the chords out and stay on them for a little while. Like strum them a couple of times. Ok so A natural minor over everything except the 3rd chord. Try it. Record it. Post it here. Then more help will come.

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Posted

Like I said, it's just an octave bassline--no chords. Ex: A, high A, A, high A, G#, high G#, G#, high G#, and so forth...


As you can tell, I'm not very experienced in theory and wouldn't really know where to start...

 

I get it - bass line goes in octaves A, G#, B, C, B and you're playing the major chords over each bass note thinking that you're in A-harmonic minor?

 

A simple place to start would be to follow the bass-line, but actually in the key of harmonic minor: i.e. Am, G#dim, Bdim, Caug, Bdim... experiment with the voicings try and make it flow and sound interesting.

 

As RD pointed out, the progression you're playing isn't actually in A-harmonic minor, or any other key for that matter! It sounds ti me like you could do with knowing how to build chords off a scale...

 

Basically start on any note and build the chord in thirds:

 

Harmonic Minor = A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E, F, G#...

 

Stacking the 3rds give you the following triads:

ACE (Am) - R, 3rd, 5th

BDF (Bdim) - 2nd, 4th, 6th (notes of the scale) - called b diminished cos the 3rd and 5th are flat compared to Bmaj chord.

CEG# (Caug)

DFA (Dm)

EG#B (Emaj)

FAC (Fmaj)

G#BD (G#dim)

 

This works for any scale. If that doesn't make sense try googling for "harmonising scales" or "chord building" - or wait for Gennation to pop in and give you the link to his site... ;)

Posted

I think everyone is missing one simple thing that would make this whole thing work quite easily.

 

The original poster said that the riff was just a bass line playing those notes in octaves. Rather than taking each note as the root of a different chord, why not just treat them all as notes of an arpeggio. You'll then end up with an Emaj(b6) chord, which greatly simplifies things. A harmonic minor then works over the entire riff, and there are no chords that disagree with it.

 

Now it's just a matter of coming up with licks that sound good. One suggestion: think of the A harmonic minor scale not as being based around the note A, but rather, think of it being based around an E major chord, since that is the harmony that the riff is outlining. Try to play licks that target the notes of E major (E, G#, and B), and you will probably find that things will already start sounding a lot better. Simply making sure you're landing on notes that agree with the harmony is something that many people seem to forget about doing.

 

One other commonly overlooked asset is to not play the scale as a scale, meaning don't play it one note right after the next all in order (1 2 3 4 5 etc). Instead, try taking arpeggios of chords from the scale and play with them. Though the harmony is an E chord, and you will eventually want to end up on the notes of an E chord, in the middle of your line you can spell out many other chords in the key to highlight some of the more interesting notes of the A harmonic minor scale. The fact that these other arpeggios won't agree with the chord will cause tension, which will then be resolved when you land on a final note that is part of the E chord.

 

Also, if you really like the sound of pentatonic scales, you can create your own out of the harmonic minor scale. They will be slightly different from what you're used to both in how they physically lay on the fretboard and in how they sound, but that's what the harmonic minor scale has to offer. The sound of the standard pentatonic scale is a mixture of notes close together (consecutive notes in the scale) and wider gaps (where notes of the scale are skipped). Try experimenting with taking 5 notes from the harmonic minor scale (there are lots of possibilities) with some of the notes being consecutive and some having gaps between them. You should still be able to come up with scale patterns that are two notes to a string, as with standard pentatonic scales, but will probably have wider stretches between some of the notes.

 

Here's an example, taking the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th notes starting on E (the pattern for the major pentatonic scale):

 

E F G# B C

Posted

 

I think everyone is missing one simple thing that would make this whole thing work quite easily.


The original poster said that the riff was just a bass line playing those notes in octaves. Rather than taking each note as the root of a different chord, why not just treat them all as notes of an arpeggio. You'll then end up with an Emaj(b6) chord, which greatly simplifies things. A harmonic minor then works over the entire riff, and there are no chords that disagree with it.

 

 

Edit: I noticed the original post said "A" and not "E," which could change things a bit. Depending on how fast the notes progressed, it could still sound like Am, or the notes could outline something else.

 

Harmonic minor is used almost exclusively to create a major V chord. In the case of A harmonic minor, it's to create an E major chord. Therefore, whenever you'd see a G# (the one note that is changed from the natural minor scale to create harmonic minor), there's usually an E chord occurring (as opposed to some kind of G# chord). My instinct would be to treat the G# bass note as an E/G# chord.

 

Also, when dealing with harmonic minor, you don't have to stay in it for an entire progression. As I said, it's used almost exclusively for that major V chord, so when you're on other chords in a progression that aren't an E chord, you can revert back to A natural minor and all the A minor pentatonic licks that you know and love.

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Posted

I just wanted to chime in again and mention that you guys are easily the most helpful forum on Harmony Central. I really appreciate the time you've taken to help me...

 

Poparad, you've got some really interesting ideas there I'm itching to try. Too bad I'm at work :)

 

I wish I'd taken more time to learn some theory in my few years (ok, maybe seven now) of playing. Music is certainly a little simpler when you can explain what you're trying to do. Theory is a lot more fun when you can directly apply it to what you're doing too...

 

Thanks again, I'll report back when I have something substantial...

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Posted

Other people posted good advice on using the harmonic minor scale, but I suspect that may not be the type of sound you are going for. The bass line is only giving you roots, it isn't defining the chords, so you have a lot of freedom.

 

Try this : Come up with a lick you are happy with in Am. Play that lick against the A. Then slide it down a half-step and play it against the G#. Then slide it back up to A and play it against the B and C. Rather than using harmonic minor, this approach is just treating the G# as a non-diatonic note.

 

As poparad said, with harmonic minor, the G# is usually used to form an E major chord that wants to resolve back to A. In heavy metal, it's sometimes approached as an excuse to throw diminished arppegios in before resolving back to A. Your song is going from G# to B, so neither of those approachs really fit.

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