Members way_toblue Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 Hello all I'm newish to both the board and playing. Here's the scenario. Been playing with serious practice for around 9 months. Got most of the basics ok, although my playing is still fairly sloppy. Rythm sems to come fairly naturally but accuracy and transition between chords has always been problematic. Never the less I'm reasonably happy with my progress. About 6 months ago I started with a tutor and at first found it totally inspiring. I'm hopeless in lessons as I get a bit fingers and thumbs but take the learning away and it has helped a lot. However I now feel I've hit a wall. My tutor has never really had 'a plan' for my playing and generally asks me what I want to learn this week. Lessons generally consist of working through a song I've brought and maybe working through a solo. He also does some scales if I ask. Before I go any further I should say he's a great bloke (which is realy important as I'm a nervous learner) and a pleasure to learn from its just that I feel I'm at the point where I've learnt the basics and maybe just need to practice then for another 6 months or so. Is this normal? What are peoples experiences of lessons- do they tend to stop and start according to where you are in the learning curve? Or should I look for a new tutor who takes a more formal approach. For the record I'd like to get to a good standard and don't want to stop at strumming Neil Young! Thanks for listening and I'd really value your responses.
Members UnderTheGroove Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 Have a discussion with your current instructor. Talk about the subjects you want to get into and the things he feels you need to be working on. Come up with a game plan that works for both of you. It sounds like you are comfortable with him, so bring this up and explain your concerns.
Members WhiskeyClone Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 I'd look for a more formal approach. I'll give you my two experiences with lessons. Teacher #1: Son of a fairly famous jazz guitarist. Great guy, great player. He focused a lot on theory and standard song forms; good stuff in my opinion. However, he was just waaay too disorganized. He would give me something to work on and then never mention it again. He would forget what I was working on and give me stuff I'd done before; he got me confused with other students sometimes. Admittedly, I wasn't the best student; I didn't know how to work on something without getting frustrated. And he would cancel almost every other lesson. That really pissed me off. Then one day he did something that turned me off for good. I was a teenager at that time, and my mother was paying for the lessons. She had written a check for the next few months but made it out to the wrong name (he goes by a nickname), and he just said, "That's okay", crossed out my mother's writing and wrote the correct name on, then handed me the pen and said "You know what your mother's initials look like, don't you?" Needless to say that was my last lesson with him. However, the theory I learned really opened doors. Teacher #2: I signed up for guitar lessons at a 'music school' run out of some guy's home. He taught piano, and had hired a young guy (21 years old; I was 23 at the time) to teach guitar. But all the guy did was what you described: he'd ask me what I wanted to learn each week and he transcribed it for me. I guess that's the kind of guitar player he wanted to be; no theory, just learn part after part by ear. I went along with that, taking what I could get from it, and eventually the owner shut down the music school under child molestation allegations. I am going to make a third attempt at lessons this fall, but I'm going to research the {censored} out of them first.
Members Dubb Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 I feel I'm at the point where I've learnt the basics and maybe just need to practice then for another 6 months or so. Is this normal?No. There often comes a point in a guitarist's musical advancement when he feels that he would be better off teaching himself the rest of the way. He has a very thorough foundation in all things guitar, and he has gained sufficient knowledge to determine what areas he needs to work on in order to advance in the areas that he wants, as well as how he can most efficiently practice in order to make this happen. I've heard this referred to as the self-actuating phase of learning guitar. But this phase does not come after 9 months... period. It takes several years. (See this article for more info: Rethinking Guitar Pedagogy) My point is that if you already feel that you could advance just as much or more by yourself than with your teacher, this is your teacher's fault. A teacher should have "a plan" for your playing, at least he still should in these early stages of your guitar playing. I think that if you're serious about advancing on your instrument, you should look into getting a better, perhaps more experienced teacher.
Members nuke_diver Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 I agree with Whiskeyclone (again). A formal approach might be what's best in the early stages (wish I had done so). My experience 1. First instructor, perfect pitch could teach me any song. A jazz guy he was starting to show me theory but wasn't organized about it too much. However before I went far with him he had to stop. 2. Second, much more organized, recorded lessons and had notes for each lesson. But he was self taught and while a great player he was instinctively one. I'm not and was finding I was not understanding the why of playing. Furthermore I seemed to be learning his licks but not how to do my own. When he left town for a while I decided it was time to move on. Again a great guy but.. 3. Newest guy, focusing on scales and why they are what they are (also in conjuction with chords). Although I am not learning any cool techniques or licks I feel this is more appropriate for me. Time however will tell as I've only been with him for about a month or so. It may be that your current instructor can change to what you are wanting to learn. However there are alot of great players out there so if you don't feel you are getting what you want it's probably time to move on. What UndertheGroove suggests it probably a great thing if you are comfortable with him.
Moderators Jed Posted April 25, 2007 Moderators Posted April 25, 2007 There often comes a point in a guitarist's musical advancement when he feels that he would be better off teaching himself the rest of the way. He has a very thorough foundation in all things guitar, and he has gained sufficient knowledge to determine what areas he needs to work on in order to advance in the areas that he wants, as well as how he can most efficiently practice in order to make this happen. I've heard this referred to as the self-actuating phase of learning guitar.But this phase does not come after 9 months... period. It takes several years. (See this article for more info: Rethinking Guitar Pedagogy) Good article. I've been self-teaching for the past year and change, never had a problem figuring out what I should work on and have made strong progress via my own means. Still, I want / need advice & guidance from someone well beyond my level to ensure my direction and focus is on track every now and then. I agree there is no way someone should be at that stage after 9 months, but an adult learner might get to the point around that time when they feel a need to build a strong foundation of basic skills rather than push-on into new territory before they are comfortable with pervious material and skills. To the OP:Before you can expect anything from an instructor you need to be able to articulate your goals, learning strengths and weaknesses. Even the best of the best instructors are still sh*tty mind readers. That being said - there is a relationship that is required between instructor and student. The instructor should inspire and challenge the student to learn and the student should be motivated and diligent enough to follow the instructors lead and see where things go. Sometimes it can be challenging to find the right person, don't assume all instructors / teachers are created equal. But stay cognizant of and hold-up your end of the bargain. cheers,
Members blumonk Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 Life lesson: Just because someone is a teacher, doesn't mean they are a good teacher. Get a new teacher. He sucks. You need structure. I waisted nearly a year with a guy doing this bull{censored}. None of the lessons were linked and he just tabbed out songs that I could find the tab for online. And just because you've been playing guitar for 10+ years doesn't mean you should teach. Drop him like a sack of potatoes. He won't know what hit him. You could probably learn more reading the lesson loft than your actual lessons. You need structure, You need tools, You need technique. Not someone to tab out 100 solos so you can play them and impress your friends.
Members astring Posted April 25, 2007 Members Posted April 25, 2007 I like to just think stuff out with the help of some books. But mostly I learn from the Real Book and listening and playing
Members Stackabones Posted April 26, 2007 Members Posted April 26, 2007 I didn't get a sense of what you're trying to do on guitar. What style are you hoping to play? That will help in finding an appropriate teacher. Far too many students say something along the lines of "I just want to get better" or "I want to be able to play anything"--both of which are too vague. If you can be more specific about your own goals, your teacher can be more specific about what he can offer you. Also--it may be time to get a new teacher. No big deal. I've never taken it personally. At times, I'll recommend that a student find a new teacher if I can't reach them through the methods I'm using. Teachers are used to students dropping in and out of lessons. Lose a student, gain a student. Happens all the time.
Members Hamhand Posted April 26, 2007 Members Posted April 26, 2007 After taking lessons for 3 months and feeling no direction, I asked for the same advice here. I had a frank discussion with my teacher which resulted in my starting at the very beginning, just like the first time I started 32 years ago. I'm happily learning the notes in the first position, and every week now he shows me answers to all my questions I've thought up during the week. This past week he also showed me the use of the 'E' position up and down the neck, so I'd have something to play around with. All work and no play .....you know. I bumped my time to one hour every week and have plenty of time to feel like I'm learning something. Some weeks I'm serious as hell about practice, some weeks life beats the hell outta me, and I get one hour of practice in. I confess if I've had very little practice and it's no big deal. He knows it's got to be fun and relaxing. And I learn at whatever pace I push on him. Really simple since I stopped over thinking it. Bottomline, just talk to your teacher. If he's as great a bloke as you say, he'll be happy to accomodate you, eh?
Members EDS Posted April 26, 2007 Members Posted April 26, 2007 In defense of guitar teachers, while there may be many bad ones out there, you have to understand that teachers get a lot of students who don't really have an interest in learning fundamentals, music theory, practicing etudes and exercises, reading music, etc. Eventually you just start doing whatever you think will get the students to actually practice - often this involves seeing what songs the student likes and teaching them how to play them. A good teacher will incorporate the concepts above into the songs (i.e., teaching the concept of a IV, V, I progression within the rock/pop song they are working on.) Its a teacher's dream to have a student who is actually interested in learning beyond their favorite songs. You just have to communicate that. I agree with the previous poster that saying you "just want to get better" is too vague. Either you should give your teacher direct goals you have in music, or just allow your teacher to dictate the lessons every week (what a concept...) Of course, you have to have faith in your teacher that he/she is competent. I had some good teachers and bad ones - for the record, all the "music store" teachers I had as a kid were mostly illiterate in musical notation! Guitar instruction is a two way street. The students who are more enthusiastic and studious will learn more in a half-hour lesson than students who aren't.
Members Knottyhed Posted April 26, 2007 Members Posted April 26, 2007 What are peoples experiences of lessons- do they tend to stop and start according to where you are in the learning curve? Or should I look for a new tutor who takes a more formal approach. I tend to stop and start lessons, generally taking lessons in styles i'm not familiar with, but I've been playing 12 years or so now. As you get better it becomes harder to find people that have something to teach you... I'd guess you're not at that stage yet As someone who spent years teaching myself I can safely say taking lessons from a decent teacher will greatly improve your rate of progress.If you want to learn more formally then, yeh - find a more formal teacher.
Members way_toblue Posted April 27, 2007 Author Members Posted April 27, 2007 First of all thanks for the responses- they've been a good indicator for where to go next I had a lesson last night and discussed my progress with my tutor. I made it clear that I wanted a more formal approach and that while I enjoyed learning songs I am happy to venture into theory more regularly. I also said that I felt my playing now needed a more formal approach. I also told him that I'd like to develop more accuracy in my chords/quicker progressions and to learn how to start putting my own solos and chords together- which scales fit which chords, which progressions work and why etc. He already knows this but I also let him know that my main interests are folk/rock music.The tutor was understanding and said that if he tries to force theory too early then people tend to turn off so he always tend to stick to learning via songs in the first instance. Having discussed this we went on to learn some major and minor scales and he attempted to clarify where chords fit into this. This took around twenty minutes. He then said he wasn't sure what to do next and did I have any ideas- at this point I was a bit flummoxed and relied on the songs approach again. So I'm not sure where I stand now- I've given clear ideas on where I'd like to go and he has responded partially but then gone back to old approaches. Maybe I should have been more directive/assertive but at what point do you start to think you're self tutoring via a good guitarist rather than actually being tutored? I think my next plan is to remain for the time being with the present tutor- to give the benefit of the doubt I did only tell him during the lesson so he may have something prepared for the next lesson. If things don't improve I think I'll look to get a different input. The one thing I've taken from all your advice is that at my stage of learning going solo is not the right approach. Thanks again
Members Knottyhed Posted April 27, 2007 Members Posted April 27, 2007 Maybe he doesn't know that much himself? I'm no theory monster, but it'd take me more than 20 mins to explain what i know. Having said that, with theory I've always felt that (to paraphrase the karate kid), it's not how much you know, but how well you know it. Perhaps he felt like it wasn't wise to give you too much to think about at any one time. Give him the benefit of the doubt for one more lesson, see if he builds on it, and if he doesn't/can't then look elsewhere.
Members nuke_diver Posted April 27, 2007 Members Posted April 27, 2007 I'd agree with what Knottyhed says You really sound like you were in a similar situation to me. I did the same thing with my #2 guy (see above) and got somewhat similar results (a little bit of more formal and back to him showing me his licks). Now that I am getting the more formal approach (major scales, modes, chord progressions in the scale and more importantly how to recognize those things) I feel much better about my playing since I think I have some idea as to what I am doing and why. If I play with someone else now I have more confidence to do so than in the past. But it might be because he wasn't really prepared for the change. So see where he takes it. Good luck
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