The Psychology of Learning the Fretboard

[evlttwin]

What techniques do you guys use to learn/memorize the fretboard?

 

And I know some people will say "Practice! Practice! Practice!", and that IS the only way to memorize it for sure. But what techniques do you use when you learn/practice?

 

For example, here are some common tools:

 

http://www.mindtools.com/memory.html

 

I was wondering if you guys actually put some of these into practice without knowing it.

[Dubb]

Repetition

[Jed]

I haven't read the article yet but here are some of the things I do:

 

1) Break things into bite-sized pieces (it's easier to remember a few things rather than too many things at once. I learned the fretboard in terms of traid arpeggios)

 

2) Look at each thing from different perspectives (I'll often practice triad arps in terms of other chords - Cmin > Cmin, Cmin7, Cmin6, Eb6, Ebmin6, A-7b5, Abmaj7, F7, Fmin9. - On the guitar is as many positions as I can imagine - off the guitar, visualizing the fretboard)

 

3) High frequency - short duration exposure (I practice something new many times throughout the day but only for short periods)

 

4) Practical applications (I tend to focus of excercises that sound musical to me rather than just running scales mindlessly.)

 

5) Mental focus (I tend to think of whatever I'm practicing in one or more musical contexts rather that just the thing by itself. For example I try to hear single notes in terms of their relationship to the key and their relationship to the current chord.

 

I'm looking forward to hearing about the mental-side of how other people approach such things.

 

cheers,

[evlttwin]

 

3) High frequency - short duration exposure (I practice something new many times throughout the day but only for short periods)

 

 

This is what I have been doing. 10 minute bursts seem to help me the most.

[CBLjazz]

It

[evlttwin]

 

 

 

That sounds like a good system for learning note names and their placements.

 

Do you have a system for learning the intervals? I'm not yet at the stage of knowing what notes go with what key right off the bat. I am trying to see the fretboard as one big shape by using the CAGED method and piecing them all together slowly.

 

For example, I practiced the C Form, and the A Form separately...until i knew them backwards and forwards. Then I combined them into one BIGGER form, and played some solos against backing tracks. Next I will add the G Form, and combine the C-A-G into another even BIGGER form. And the same with the E and D forms, until it is all one big ambiguous flowing form in my brain.

[CBLjazz]

 

What techniques do you guys use to learn/memorize the fretboard? And I know some people will say "Practice! Practice! Practice!", and that IS the only way to memorize it for sure. But what techniques do you use when you learn/practice? For example, here are some common tools: http://www.mindtools.com/memory.html I was wondering if you guys actually put some of these into practice without knowing it.

 

 

Warning: Do not try to use Mnemonic systems to memorize the fretboard. I

[blumonk]

Practice.

[CBLjazz]

 

That sounds like a good system for learning note names and their placements. Do you have a system for learning the intervals? I'm not yet at the stage of knowing what notes go with what key right off the bat. I am trying to see the fretboard as one big shape by using the CAGED method and piecing them all together slowly.

 

 

I

[evlttwin]

I

[captain average]

i don't see the point in knocking repetition, since i like playing the guitar and i'll use the notes in the various scales many many times in my life.

 

anyway, mostly you just go by sound until some kinda grid emerges in your mind, and your hands expect to go here or there, or you can go with a pattern you see in a book and mess around with that until the same sorta thing happens. the former is what usually happens with exotic scales or unusual fingerings, while the latter is generally what happens with commonly used scales like root position or caged scales. either way, it's not so much knowledge about scales as it is learning licks and being comfortable playing around using this or that set of sounds, and hopefully being able to expand beyond what you've formally learned and being able to create.

[gennation]

The best thing to do is:

 

learn that notes ONLY range from A to G (ABCDEFG), once you hit G you start again at A (ABCDEFGABCDEFGABC...etc...). It's a "cycle".

 

ALL natural note names have Whole Steps between them EXCEPT B and C, and E and F.

 

The note between the Whole Steps are either a "sharp" of the lower note or a "flat" of the higher note. So, between A and B lies A# or Bb. Don't worry about sharps or flats for B and C or E and F right now.

 

Now find a note you know on the fretboard. Use the Whole and Half step approach to FIND what notes comes next, or before it.

 

Now find the Octaves of each note you already know to help you learn the notes on the other strings.

 

Look at the chords or scales you already know and call the note names from them to help you see the notes in relation to some patterns you already know.

 

NOW TAKE SOME TIME OUT OF YOUR "PLAYING". Spend ONE WEEKEND drilling this. It will take nothing away from your playing time, but by the end of the weekend "I GUARANTEE" you will know MORE about the notes/fretboard than you do RIGHT NOW.

 

Do this one your guitar, without the guitar in your hands, and THIS IS A BIG ONE...draw/write them OVER AND OVER on blank fretboard diagrams!!!! Start doing this NOW!

 

Read this again and keep repeating it on the fretboard, thinking through it without your guitar, and above all write it on paper on fretboard diagrams. Take a serious chunk of time for about a month. You ARE going to "get it".

 

Regardless of what "method" you find, knowing THIS is want you want the outcome to be. So hit it directly. Use the this as the #1 method and the others as supplements to it. See how the OTHER methods you find fit in THIS method, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

 

Notice how learning the names of the notes on the fretboard is the #1 topic at this lesson: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Intervals/IntervalsTOC.htm

 

It's that important. Without know that, you never grasp some of the great secrets of the fretboard, or many of the basics.

[Jed]

 

Do you have a system for learning the intervals? I'm not yet at the stage of knowing what notes go with what key right off the bat. I am trying to see the fretboard as one big shape by using the CAGED method and piecing them all together slowly. For example, I practiced the C Form, and the A Form separately...until i knew them backwards and forwards. Then I combined them into one BIGGER form, and played some solos against backing tracks. Next I will add the G Form, and combine the C-A-G into another even BIGGER form. And the same with the E and D forms, until it is all one big ambiguous flowing form in my brain.

 

 

I did a similar thing with each form (learning them one at a time and then combining them) But I learned them specifically, in terms of notes in some key. I used the forms to learn each key and afterwards learned the forms in terms of intervals only.

 

There are three major hurdles to learning to play the guitar (IMO):

1) Learning the fretboard

2) Learning all of the keys

3) Learning about harmonic theory / diatonic progressions

 

The problem, I think, is that each of these three can only really be learned in terms of the other two, so all three need to be learned concurrently. For example there is minimal value in know the note locations on the fretboard if you don't know how to use them in context. Modern music is rarely written in a single key and most of the interesting solos utilize harmonic concepts like borrowed chords and chord subs. Lastly, even if you know the note locations and can recite scales in various keys you still can't play well until you understand how chords and chord scales are used to move us around various tonal centers.

 

It wasn't until I started approaching the guitar in terms of these three dimensions at the same time and to the same degree that things started to come together. So my suggestion is this:

 

Take something you know like triad arps, 7th chord arps, pentatonic patterns, etc and practice them around the cycle of 5th's. Then study them in terms of harmonic theory to see how they relate to chords. Lastly as you do this you'll find areas of the fretboard / keys that seem easy. Avoid what's easy and double up your efforts on those areas of the fretboard / keys that seem more difficult.

 

For example I practice a lot of 2-octave triad & 7th chord arps but I avoid starting from notes on the 5th and 6th strings in order to strenthen / balance my ability to visualize stuff in an around the inside strings. Basically I focus on elimiating weaknesses in my daily practice, rather then noddling around with stuff I already do well.

 

cheers,

[Jed]

"Learning the fretboard" means different things to different people. Although most people can make significant progress in 6 weeks as CBL described, mastering the fretboard can take much, much longer. Each of us "see" the fretboard a bit differently and each of us "learns" a bit differently. The key I think is in coming to grips with our learning strengths and weakness and utilizing this information to our best advantage.

 

There's no such thing as "one size fits all" from a learning point of view. Each of us "learn" differently, so each us us should "be taught" differently and in a manner consistent with "how we learn". I'm fascinated by many of the discussions in "The Lesson Loft" not because of the technical content but rather as a window into how various people think about, perceive and approach any of the challenges associated with learning about the guitar and music. It's the variations in approach that is much more valuable than the technical content for me.

 

There is a book that I discovered several years ago when I was training to become a sea-kayaking coach that completely changed my understanding of learning from both an external (teaching others) and internal (teaching myself) perspective.

 

The book is titled "About Learning" and explains learning theory, cognitive theory, learning psychology and provided direction and advise for teachers on how to utilize various learning systems to reach out to various student types. I can't even begin to do this book justice in either description or definition but there's a nice explanation of some of the concepts here - http://www.aboutlearning.com/what_is_4mat.htm

 

I consider it required reading for any one that aspires to teach others and any adults that desire to self-teach. A large part of it's value for me was in getting me to understand the mechanisms of how I learn and how I might utilize different techniques in order to learn anything more quickly, fluently and with greater mastery.

 

cheers,

[Virgman]

 

What techniques do you guys use to learn/memorize the fretboard?

 

 

Hey, you made this same post a few weeks back.

 

Did you try our suggestions?

 

Hey, you made this same post a few weeks back.

 

Did you try our suggestions?

 

Hey, you made this same post a few weeks back.

 

Did you try our suggestions?

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1612412

[CBLjazz]

You're hilarious

 

You're hilarious

 

You're hilarious

[evlttwin]

 

Hey, you made this same post a few weeks back. Did you try our suggestions?

 

 

Sure did. The whole 7th chord thing does not help to learn the intervals. It helps you find notes, but that is only part of learning the fretboard. And if your going to post in a thread, at least post something positive.

 

I'm still waiting on the techniques that you use.......

[CBLjazz]

if your going to post in a thread, at least post something positive.

 

In the words of the 20th century philosopher King,

Rodney not Martin Luther

 

 

...Can't we all just get along?

[Virgman]

Sure did. The whole 7th chord thing does not help to learn the intervals. It helps you find notes, but that is only part of learning the fretboard. And if your going to post in a thread, at least post something positive. I'm still waiting on the techniques that you use.......

 

Well, if you know where the notes are...

 

Guess I don't understand the question then.

 

[evlttwin]

...Can't we all just get along?

 

Exactly. I am admittedly new to the guitar, and I'm asking for advice from professionals like yourself, JedL, gennation, etc..

 

It seems like every time we get a discussion going, here comes someone with nothing positive to add to the conversation at all. (i.e. reddragon, Virgman, etc..)

 

Virgman, If my questions seem redundant then just write it off as over enthusiasm.

[Virgman]

Well, ok then.

 

Carry on.

[Knottyhed]

Say and play works... it's how I've got it together (I didn't sit there physically shouting the notes, but working out the note names of the stuff you're playing in your head will do).

 

Once you get a rough handle on where the notes are top of that you can practice it in your head without a guitar on the train/bus/in your car (so long as you can still pay attention to the road of course!).

 

There's some cool programs on the net you can test yourself with that are pretty handy too e.g. fretboard warrior

 

Bottom line is repetition and variation, the more ways you can repeat something the better.

[nuke_diver]

Do this one your guitar, without the guitar in your hands, and THIS IS A BIG ONE...draw/write them OVER AND OVER on blank fretboard diagrams!!!! Start doing this NOW!

 

You trying to get me fired?

 

Actually I've done this in meetings

 

I have gotten to the point where I have pretty good knowledge of the fretboard but it is not instanteous knowledge (I usually need a second or two to find some notes..sometimes I'm fast sometimes I have senior moments)

 

Some good ideas here for continued practice...I'll have to look into them more in my spare time

[Minitruth]

 

Exactly. I am admittedly new to the guitar, and I'm asking for advice from professionals like yourself, JedL, gennation, etc.. It seems like every time we get a discussion going, here comes someone with nothing positive to add to the conversation at all. (i.e. reddragon, Virgman, etc..) Virgman, If my questions seem redundant then just write it off as over enthusiasm.

 

 

This is why I stopped posting here. Anytime you try to post something useful

or something you need, somebody butts in and starts an argument. There

are some very nice people here, but the assholes always disrupt. The only

reason I'm posting this is because there are many other guitar forums out

there that don't tolerate argumentative posters, but will actually help you

without trying to put you down. Good luck.

[6mmSid]

I think "Lesson Loft" is pretty tame compared to the rest of HC, and I've learned lots of stuff here. I'm interested to know what other forums you like better. Thanks.

 

Sid

 

 

 

This is why I stopped posting here. Anytime you try to post something useful or something you need, somebody butts in and starts an argument. There are some very nice people here, but the assholes always disrupt. The only reason I'm posting this is because there are many other guitar forums out there that don't tolerate argumentative posters, but will actually help you without trying to put you down. Good luck.