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OT: coming up with chord progressions


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Posted

Other than just looking at what chords are in a key and mucking about with them does anyone have a method they use to come up with chord progressions? Sort of knowing what will work and what won't and being able to come up with a progression that fits a feel that youre going for (ie sinister, triumphant, heroic etc etc).

 

much appreciated guys.

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Posted

For me it's a bit of everything. Many times I come up with the coolest things just by letting my hands find stuff that "feels" comfortable. Many times some of the most "comfortable" sounding things I end up with are almost the most comfortable to play.

 

When coming up with songs forget theory. It can help if you run into a bind but leave theory for latter.

 

Another thing I'll do is force my self on a daily basis to come up with a melody, chord line, drum beat, lyric phrase, etc...as the FIRST thing I do when I get out of bed in the morning. Then carry that idea through the morning whilel showering, shaving, eating, etc...the ideawill constantly mold and 9 times out of 10 you'll end up with an idea/scetch you'll want to record/capture before heading out to work/school so you can retrieve when you get home.

 

That way starts with you mind clear of the days cludder, and it gets you "creating" without any instrument in the way. Try in for a coupleof weeks, it'll get better with practice.

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I use theory with the purpose of twisting it. I know what chords are supposed to be used in a certain key (or at least I can figure them out in a matter of minutes), but if I write a song most of the time I purposefully "violate" the key by adding one or two chords that are not supposed to be there. The choice of them is otherwise quite random... Sometimes it sounds very good, other times it doesn't fit at all and you have to find another chord.

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Posted

 

Other than just looking at what chords are in a key and mucking about with them does anyone have a method they use to come up with chord progressions? Sort of knowing what will work and what won't and being able to come up with a progression that fits a feel that youre going for (ie sinister, triumphant, heroic etc etc).


much appreciated guys.

 

 

You start with the melody and that will give you the chord progression. Any given chord progression can sound either triumphant or silly depending on what melody you're playuing agianst it. Work the other way.

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Any given chord progression can sound either triumphant or silly depending on what melody you're playuing agianst it.

 

 

I completely disagree with this.

 

You can play any melody and its sound will be changed by the chords, but given a chord progression, most melodies will sound somewhat similar on top of it.

 

For proof, play the notes E, D, C over a Cmaj Fmaj progression, and then over a Am E7 progression.

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You can play any melody and its sound will be changed by the chords, but given a chord progression, most melodies will sound somewhat similar on top of it.

I'm with Drew on this one. We even messed around with this in one of the music classes that I took. We changed the chords to Darth Vader's entrance theme so that it sounded downright silly, and we also played a pretty sinister version of "Happy Birthday." As another example, a relatively common practice among rock guitarists while playing in major keys is to play in the relative minor pentatonic key (for example, A minor pentatonic over a C major progression), so they're basically playing the same licks, but it sounds quite different over the major key chords. I have a sneaking suspicion that this was a typo on Terje's part.

 

To OP: I recommend learning as many chord-based songs as you can. By chord-based I mean no riffs, no power chords, just REAL chords. Learn a {censored}load of chord progressions and make sure that you know what chords you are playing, and have an idea of the chord's function in the progression. The thread that astring posted is a good start, learn ALL of those progressions. Experience is the key here.

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I'm with Drew on this one. We even messed around with this in one of the music classes that I took. We changed the chords to Darth Vader's entrance theme so that it sounded downright silly, and we also played a pretty sinister version of "Happy Birthday." As another example, a relatively common practice among rock guitarists while playing in major keys is to play in the relative minor pentatonic key (for example, A minor pentatonic over a C major progression), so they're basically playing the same licks, but it sounds quite different over the major key chords. I have a sneaking suspicion that this was a typo on Terje's part.

 

Not it wasn't, although I am a master of typos :)

 

Anyway, you're giving me the example I need to "prove" my point, although ti should perhaps be said right now that even I understand that melody and harmony interact. If the combination sounds silly it doesn't mean that either of the two is the guilty party and the other is not but...

 

... the melody to Darth Vader's entrance is majestic even when you change the chords, it was the context that make it silly. The correct chords to the same melody, played without the melody, will not sound very majestic at all but the melody line alone still sounds majestic, even when played on a ukulele or sung by a 5 year old.

 

It is the intervals in the melody that creates the mood, much more than the chord progression. If I wanted a certain mood I'd look for a melody that gave me that and then I'd add chords that went well with the melody. I wouldn't go about it the other way around because that would seem very backwards.

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Well it's hard to argue such a subjective point, whether a melody or progression sounds "majestic" (or whatever else) in isolation or not, so I'll just say agree to disagree :cool:.

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Its an interesting point.

 

 

Tchaikovsky wrote melodies before the chords and his violin concerto is about the most majestic thing I have ever heard.

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Well it's hard to argue such a subjective point, whether a melody or progression sounds "majestic" (or whatever else) in isolation or not, so I'll just say agree to disagree
:cool:
.

 

No, this is not subjective. Melodies create feelings. That's what they do.

 

Can a chord progression create feelings too? Of course, but usually not as strong. Does it matter how the two are combined? Naturally, they can either support each other, go against each other, reduce each other, enhance each others' negative sides... it's very much like any relationship really.

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Posted

:rolleyes:

 

Definition of subjective:

"Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world."

A chord progression or melody does not inherently have any emotions; it is simply a group or sequence of pitches. A person's mind attaches emotions to it. Therefore, the feelings evoked by a particular progression or melody are a subjective experience for the listener. This is objective fact, period. What sounds majestic to me could potentially sound boring to you, and vice versa. Hell, it could even just sound "less majestic" for one of us. The mere fact that it's even possible for two people to hear the same thing and get something even slightly different out of it, makes it a subjective experience. Are we clear on this?

 

It is for this reason that I am simply not going to argue with you any further over whether the melody or chord progression is more important in establishing the mood of a song. It's a matter of subjective opinion. :wave:

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Posted

Write the chords first. or the melody first. Or get a killer riff and go from that. Or program in a crazy loop on a drum machine and piece it all together like a collage. Or get a sample of some guy yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre and go from there...

How you come up with a chord progression is going to depend on what else you've already written. If I'm starting with chords, I often use that good old technique of "pivot tones" - that is, moving from one chord to another keeping a note the same, whether that's a chord tone or extension.

If I'm making them for a melody, I think about where I want each note of the melody to sit in relation to the chords, and what notes I want to be tension notes, and what I want to be resolution notes.

If I'm writing it to a riff, I tend to be just trying to work out the simplest chord progression that that riff implies.

Gennation's right though: while theory can be useful in making sure you haven't missed anything, you can't use theory to write a tune. Individual ideas can be great though. For instance, radiohead wrote "creep" by utilizing a theory that was quite popular in late 19th century and early 20th century classical music - moving to a major chord a M3 away from the tonic. It's a simple device that nevertheless gave the song its signature. It worked so well they only used 4 chords for the whole tune. But they probably didn't play the G chord at the start then think "what does my knowledge of music theory tell me I can do now?"

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Posted

 

Other than just looking at what chords are in a key and mucking about with them does anyone have a method they use to come up with chord progressions? Sort of knowing what will work and what won't and being able to come up with a progression that fits a feel that youre going for (ie sinister, triumphant, heroic etc etc).


much appreciated guys.

 

 

I'm sure everyone has a different approach, but personally I don't think too much about the theory, I let my ears tell me what chord I want and use the theory to explain it afterwards, to help me come up with a second guitar part and so I know what my options will be if I want to lay a solo over it.

 

I experiment with voicings and extensions to try and get the chords to flow into other nicely and create a melodic movement through the progression. If you really listen you'll find that once you've got a couple of chords your ears will suggest what should come next.

 

If you want some rules to follow then I guess maybe the 'mode' you base the progression around might be a starting point,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode scroll to the table half way down), although what each mode 'does' is kinda open to interpretation.

 

Apart from anything else, the *way* you play is as important (more important?) than what specific chords you play in a progression. For example if you strum full 6 string voicings softly using open chords it's sound very different to if you strum choppily using triad voicings further up the neck, the same chords will impart an entirely different feel.

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Posted

:rolleyes:

Definition of subjective:

"Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world."

A chord progression or melody does not inherently have any emotions; it is simply a group or sequence of pitches. A person's mind attaches emotions to it. Therefore, the feelings evoked by a particular progression or melody are a subjective experience for the listener.
This is objective fact, period.
What sounds majestic to me could
potentially
sound boring to you, and vice versa. Hell, it could even just sound "less majestic" for one of us. The mere fact that it's even possible for two people to hear the same thing and get something even slightly different out of it, makes it a subjective experience. Are we clear on this?

 

Yes, you made a very valid point.

 

It is for this reason that I am simply not going to argue with you any further over whether the melody or chord progression is more important in establishing the mood of a song. It's a matter of subjective opinion.
:wave:

 

OK, but can you please give me an example of a majestic chord progression?

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Posted

 

If I'm starting with chords, I often use that good old technique of "pivot tones" - that is, moving from one chord to another keeping a note the same, whether that's a chord tone or extension.

 

 

Duke Ellington wrote a lot of melodies this way and while it can often lead to beautiful sonoraties (sp?) it also often leads to weak melodies. Case in point, for instnace In A Sentimental Mood, a song I really love playing but not without at least the bass line because that's where it all happens. The melody itself is really boring on its own.

 

Compare this to another jazz standard like for instance Skylark or All Of Me where the melody stands on its own without any accompaniment if necessary.

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Posted

Terje - chord progressions can and do contain (recessive and dominant) melodies... at the end of the day chords are collections of harmonised notes, if you move through a progression you're playing a set of harmonised notes that move into other notes. A technique I often use is to start with a base chord and use extensions to make a melody e.g.

 

Cmaj|Cmaj7|Cadd9|Cadd11|Gadd9 can create a nice melody, particularly if voiced right.

 

I'm sure I (or anyone else) could knock up a 'majestic' chord progression - off the top of my head (I don't have an instrument here) i'd try Em|Em9|G|D :p

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Posted

I'm sure I (or anyone else) could knock up a 'majestic' chord progression - off the top of my head (I don't have an instrument here) i'd try Em|Em9|G|D
:p

 

The top notes are part of a swedish children's song. Actually, that melody would start with a B and then move up to E F# G F#, but just playing those three notes I hear the song Trollmors vaggvisa, about an old troll woman who is singing to her kids, trying to make them fall a sleep.

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Posted

Here's an example that I posted a while ago of a chord progression that I think sounds "majestic"

sound clip

F7 | G | Ab | Bb | C

from Electric Light Orchestra's "Can't Get It Out Of My Head."

 

It borrows from the parallel minor scale to build back up to the tonic, essentially creating that "minor fall and major lift" effect.

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Posted

The top notes are part of a swedish children's song. Actually, that melody would start with a B and then move up to E F# G F#, but just playing those three notes I hear the song Trollmors vaggvisa, about an old troll woman who is singing to her kids, trying to make them fall a sleep.

:D

 

Well that gets back to two points

 

1.) Dubb's point about 'majestic' etc. being in the ear of the beholder... it's subjective. Although I'd say that whilst I agree in principle, I think it's still broadly the same effect that music will have on people. Going to a gig/concert will prove that! Also I can't imagine that anyone would argue that the Benny Hill theme tune was majestic or sad!

 

2.) My point about *how* you play/express/voice the chords and the effect it'll have on how it sounds is more important. I could play those chords and make it sound funky, sad, majestic, or like childs lullaby - just by how I strummed/voiced it/timed the changes etc. Take the open chords G|D|C - cycle through those changes one beat per-chord and strum them hard and it sounds sort of triumphant to me... slow it down, strum it softly, stay on each chord for a bar (think knocking on heaven's door) and it sounds a bit meloncoly.

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Posted

... the melody to Darth Vader's entrance is majestic even when you change the chords, it was the context that make it silly. The correct chords to the same melody, played
without
the melody, will not sound very majestic at all but the melody line alone still sounds majestic, even when played on a ukulele or sung by a 5 year old.

 

You what's ironic about this - I've just realised that the melody to the Darth Vader tune is based on a chord - a major7 chord to be exact.

 

Mi, Mi, Mi, Do, So, Mi, Do, So, Mi, Ti, Ti, Ti, Do, So, Mi, Do, So, Mi,

 

That's right it contains R, 3, 5, 7 of the scale... also if that's a majestic melody, I guess this:

 

D, Bb, F, D, Bb, F, D, A, Bb, F, D, Bb, F, D must be a majestic chord progression is you play it a certain way ;)

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Posted

As it's originally played, my ear hears those Mi's as Do's, which would make it:

Do Do Do, Le Me Do, Le Me Do... etc

and give it that sense of minory foreboding.

 

Indeed, playing those Do's as Mi's against a maj7 chord sounds more like the entrance theme for "Darth Fairy" :lol:

 

I'm not sure I follow you on the whole chord progression bit though :confused:

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I'm not sure I follow you on the whole chord progression bit though
:confused:

I'm basically saying you should be able to play those chords to approximate the melody. I'm sure I could tweak those chords to bring it out even more, but I'm at work :(

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