Members TheMirrorMan Posted July 15, 2007 Members Posted July 15, 2007 Ok, so, first question: What are modes? I know that they're, well, I don't know....notes of a scale, starting on a different root not? How do you use modes? Are they like scales? Play them over a progression? Or do they have specific uses? Modal formulas? Yeah, I know how to work those out.
Members Virgman Posted July 15, 2007 Members Posted July 15, 2007 1) See the sticky "Scales/modes/tonality". 2) Read the sticky.
Members Li10 Posted July 15, 2007 Members Posted July 15, 2007 err they're basically scales, but with different intervals between the notes. It's like, scales are 8 notes with certain intervals between them. Err, modes just have different intervals between the notes. Or something.
Members Dr. Jimmy Posted July 15, 2007 Members Posted July 15, 2007 err they're basically scales, but with different intervals between the notes. It's like, scales are 8 notes with certain intervals between them. Err, modes just have different intervals between the notes. Or something. Well, that explains it then......
Members tw0k1ngs Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 Well, that explains it then...... Actually he is pretty much dead on... It just so happens they are derived from separate degrees in the Ionian/Major mode.
Members bardsley Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 To understand modes you need to read about the history of modes, and the history of harmony. It would take a very long post to fully explain it, and people like to add little comments that generally just confuse the issue. To be honest, in this case I think you'd be better off reading this wikipedia article than the post above, which has become incredibly bloated. Once you've read it, come back and ask more specific questions, and we'll be able to help better. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_music
Members Knottyhed Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 Ok, so, first question:What are modes?I know that they're, well, I don't know....notes of a scale, starting on a different root not?How do you use modes?Are they like scales? Play them over a progression? Or do they have specific uses?Modal formulas?Yeah, I know how to work those out. The way I look at them is this... Any chord will occur in 3 different keys... e.g. Am - key of C, G, F. Am is the vi (6th) chord of C... aolian is the 6th mode. So... you play C major over an Am chord you're playing aolian (natural minor). Am is the ii chord of G, G major over Am is dorian. Am is the iii chord of F, F major over Am is phrygian. C major - key of C, G, F C major I chord of C = ionianC major IV chord of G = lydianC major V chord of F = mixolodian If you are familiar with the circle of 5th's you'll notice something else about those modes - the keys are next to each other on the circle. Another interesting thing - the pentatonic scale is the notes which all the modes share. A min pent = A, C, D, E, GA aolian = , B, , , , F, A dorian = , B, , , , F#,A phrygian = , Bb,, , , F, So that's it in a nutshell... if you're playing over a progression you need to know what key(s) the chord is derived from and then if you know your theory you'll know what scales you can play over the chords.
Members Dubb Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 To understand modes you need to read about the history of modes, and the history of harmony.It's interesting knowledge to have, sure. But you don't have to know the history of modes to understand them in either a theoretical or practical way. I would say that the majority of people who use and understand modes don't know the history behind them.
Members Knottyhed Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 I'm not sure 'history' is the right word... but I think you certainly need to understand scales and how chords are derived from scales before you can understand, use and apply modes.
Members Dubb Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 Of course. But that's a far cry from reading about the historical conception of modal music.
Members Knottyhed Posted July 16, 2007 Members Posted July 16, 2007 I think the main confusion with modes is that people hear about them and want to learn about them before they learn about intervals and chord construction. My route to get my head around them was: - Learn major scale - Learn about intervals and how scales are built - Learn about how scales harmonise into chords - Memorise the circle of 5ths and how the keys differ from one another - Know what notes are in each key - Memorise the chords in the 12 keys on the circle (if you know the circle you'll already know 4th and 5th chords, so learn 6 - the relative minor first) At this point you'll understand and be able to use modes. So it's just a matter of practicing what you know and training your ears. So record some chord vamps, or modal progressions to practice over. Or even just play over a static tone.
Members bardsley Posted July 17, 2007 Members Posted July 17, 2007 The reason why I suggested learning the history is in order to understand that modal music is different from tonal music. You can use a mode over chords, but if you, say play dorian over the ii, followed by mixolydian over the V7, followed by ionian over the I, you're not playing modal music. Thinking about each mode might be a useful way of structuring your thinking about what notes are available to play over each chord, but it's a very different thing from actually exploring modality. The other reason why I think it's useful to know about the history is that most people on this forum seem to get confused about modes, because they think "dorian is really just the major scale starting on the 2nd note", and that's all there is to it. Sure, D dorian contains the same notes as C major, but D dorian is never used when you're playing in a C major tonality. You're playing C major starting on C. You're only playing a D dorian scale when you're playing something in D minor.
Members gennation Posted July 17, 2007 Members Posted July 17, 2007 The history of Modal Music is very interesting. In "the beginning" there were only a few Modes, and they were not Diatonically connected, like we learn them today. I don't have the literature in front of me right now but some interesting things are, for instance, The few modes they had were named after "tribes' essentially. A certain modes was ALWAYS played from the SAME ROOT, IOW, their wasn't D Dorian, A Dorian, etc...it was JUST Dorian. And it always had the same Root note. Then the Church Modes came about, which started linking the modes to a scale, and in turn adding modes based on the fact that they felt they needed to have a mode for EACH note of the scale. Music in general never really USED modes, unless is was Modal Music...Modal Music USED modes...like chants, etc..."music" in general was a different beast than modal music. I suggest everyone ALWAYS start learning modes by understanding Modal Music first, it will save years of decades of confusion about "not understanding Modes"...Modes is not a "thing" like a scale...it's a type of music. Pinning "modes" on everything you've done up to now, just like you pinning Pentatonic scales on everything, is the wrong way to go, or better yet the more confusing way to understand modes. Read up on how modes came about and how "unconnected" they were from the way we have them now, and how they were a special form of "music", not ALL music. This might be a good read, although they don't talk about much info before the church got a hold of things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
Members bardsley Posted July 18, 2007 Members Posted July 18, 2007 See, will you listen now that the infinitely more respected Gennation says it?
Members bigboy_78 Posted July 18, 2007 Members Posted July 18, 2007 I heard somewhere that Pythagorus (of Pythagorus's Theory* fame) had something to do with it originaly.And that the modes are named after regions in Ancient Greece. Pythagorus was from Ionia. I think modes were used before the invented the "black" keys. I didn't care when I was being told, now I wished I'd listened.*The square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the other two side.
Members Dubb Posted July 18, 2007 Members Posted July 18, 2007 See, will you listen now that the infinitely more respected Gennation says it? Well I'm not planning on arguing the point, after all it surely won't hurt anything to learn the history. But to assert that it's a necessity in order to properly use and understand modes just because that's what it took for the "infinitely more respected" gennation to have his moment is still ludicrous. Next you'll be saying that in order to play baseball, you have to read about the history of the game and how the rules came about. Wrooooong.
Members gennation Posted July 18, 2007 Members Posted July 18, 2007 I must add that Modal Music has not changed, we just have many more misconceptions than we use to because everything got mumble jumbled into "Key's" and Diatonic studies. So, a good study of Modes up to about 1960 is well worth your time. Play modes that way for about a year or so, THEN take it from the 60's and on...but it'll STILL be Modal Music...not so much rock or country, or, etc... Pythagorus's Theory has a big effect on music in general, not really modes persay. He was a mathematician who started to connect dots and form relationships. http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm Regardless... More chords related Diatonically = Less Modal Stand alone chords (or very few chords from a Diatonic Key or using other chords not from the Diatonic Key) = Modal Theory wise you can drag Modes through the mud using them over Zep, Skynyrd, etc... tunes. There are notable exceptions but for 90% of the time Modes don't need to figure in. A Mode fits one chord, and that's the "I chord". The more you learn about Modal Music the more obvious this is.
Members gennation Posted July 19, 2007 Members Posted July 19, 2007 Strange thing...as I think of ways to "comprehend" music as well as play it... Through some of these "mode" discussions I'm forming a number of understandings/differentiators for music...only for comprehension but it's perfect for application too... and I think on the surface a lot of it comes down to... Modal Music/Modal Theory/Modal Harmony/Modal Concepts v/s Functional Harmony/Functional Theory/Functional Concepts I really got to thinking the other night how a study of Modal History shows you how little Modal Music has changed, especially up to the 60's (with a few exceptions from the 70's). Sure we had a huge Mode Revival in the 80's for guitarist with every guitar rag touting them "as the way to go". But, all of this scale/pattern study had VERY little talk about Modal Music. On the other hand Functional Harmony has been through so many changes through different "musical periods". So, yesterday morning I was listening to Like Minds (Burton, Corea, Metheny, Holland, and Haynes). There's a few definite Modal tunes and a few Functional tunes. Actually it was track 7 & 8 that really had me saying "7 is Modal, and 8 is Functional". I've been hearing this for years but never found the perfect classifications before. Some tunes on the CD start with a Modal interlude to the Functional song. So, there's also a mix of Modal and Functional but definitely a line drawn in the sand between the Intro v/s the Song. The strange things is, just yesterday a "theory mentor/expert in text" at another forum drew that same line between Modal and Functional Harmony/Concepts. It put things in even more perspective for me. I'm sure I heard these terms used before but it's a definite eye opener for applications in music I play, and listen to. Studying/realizing the two individually before crossing the lines is one of the key eye-openers to application I think. I know I've heard this many times before but just in the last week or so it's really been staring my in the face as I listen to Music. Not until now did I realize I had been doing this for decades. Just thought I'd pass it on. So, I'd almost now change my last post to... More chords related Functionally = Less ModalLess chords related Functionally = More Modal
Members dsimon665 Posted July 19, 2007 Members Posted July 19, 2007 ^^^good points. Its fascinating stuff. I'd like to study more music history - I think that would shed some light on what is going on today. IMO, todays music in general does not fall into one category (like functional, or modal). You have a lot of chromatic elements from different sources. One aspect is world music influences on western music - like for example celtic music or african influence via the blues...any type of "folk" music that was based on melody and came before or in parallel to the development of functional harmony...and not just harmony. There's also all the rhythmic things from world music influencing western music. I'm no expert, but if you look at the Romantic period of classical music - that's when the functional harmony guys started to experiment with getting away from functional harmony - some of that included messing with "modes". Eventually they ended up with atonal music in the 20th century. But at the same time, there was no rule saying these elements can't be mixed together. In the jazz world there was the whole modal period that brought about new compositional elements and harmony. I love Chick Corea modal stuff...also Herbie Hancock. The Yellowjackets are cool too and put a modern spin on "nonfunctional harmony". Here's a site about some of the first "modal jazz":http://www.modaljazz.com/recordings.html
Members gennation Posted July 20, 2007 Members Posted July 20, 2007 Here's a site about some of the first "modal jazz": http://www.modaljazz.com/recordings.html It's a good task to listen to those albums listed and "listen" to the difference of the particular tunes they picked out compared to some of the other tunes on those albums. There is a difference.It's too bad they missed Side 1 of Mclaughlin's My Goals Beyond
Members guitaristhelp Posted July 20, 2007 Members Posted July 20, 2007 The best way to learn about modes is to play them and then figure out what notes you're playing and the intervals between them etc. Look at the scales page on my site (link below) for mode shapes for guitar...
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