Members Santuzzo Posted September 1, 2007 Members Posted September 1, 2007 I had a rehearsal last night with a band that does electronic/dancefloor/techno kinda stuff with two guitars, a laptop-DJ and eventually also a percussionist. I so sucked at improvising last night, I feel so frustrated.The tunes are harmonically very basic, so most of it is some sort of vamp thing with one or two chords. I have been practicing quite some jazz lately, so improvising over changes. And for the rest I have mainly worked on technique (not for jazz, more for metal and such, on a solidbody). I realize I need to work so much more on improvising over stuff other than jazz chord changes. How do you guys organize your practice time, how much of it do you approximately devote to improvising and how much to technique and how much to other stuff, like chords, comping, ear training, etc. The good thing about the frustrating experience I got from last night's rehearsal is that I realize I need to change the way I'm practicing. I'm just not sure yet in what way I want to change it. Another thing is, I do sometimes jam over a vamp at home with Band-In-A-Box as part of my practicing, but then the style will be so much different from what I am doing with this band I was rehearsing with last night.So, my next question would be: do any of you know a preferable online resource for playalongs in that kind of electronic-house-techno style? I know this is a long post, sorry about that, but I'm just so frustrated about my playing right now, had to ask some questions.... Lars:wave:
Members Virgman Posted September 1, 2007 Members Posted September 1, 2007 It could be that the difference in style and rhythm just threw you off a bit. Then compounding that was the pressure you felt to perform at the time. It would be easy to chuck everything you've been doing and go off on a tangent but that might not be wise. Perhaps some practice jamming over music like last night's would be enough to make you more comfortable.
Members 1001gear Posted September 1, 2007 Members Posted September 1, 2007 I realize I need to work so much more on improvising over stuff other than jazz chord changes. That. With jazz changes, sometimes just getting the accidentals right will keep it interesting. With those techno vamps it's all you - or nuthin. Chops, licks, COLORS, solo and rhythmic architecture and that can go on for scores of bars. Yadda yadda....
Members h0ss Posted September 1, 2007 Members Posted September 1, 2007 If you want to continue working in a generally jazz vein, but have more available for the electronica-type events, maybe you can invest some time into modal playing, like "So What". When you're playing over a single chord for the entire AA section, and up a half step for the B section, then back to the first chord, it can teach you to really stretch.
Members Jawbreakerr Posted September 1, 2007 Members Posted September 1, 2007 I had a rehearsal last night with a band that does electronic/dancefloor/techno kinda stuff with two guitars, a laptop-DJ and eventually also a percussionist.I so sucked at improvising last night, I feel so frustrated.The tunes are harmonically very basic, so most of it is some sort of vamp thing with one or two chords.I have been practicing quite some jazz lately, so improvising over changes. And for the rest I have mainly worked on technique (not for jazz, more for metal and such, on a solidbody).I realize I need to work so much more on improvising over stuff other than jazz chord changes.How do you guys organize your practice time, how much of it do you approximately devote to improvising and how much to technique and how much to other stuff, like chords, comping, ear training, etc.The good thing about the frustrating experience I got from last night's rehearsal is that I realize I need to change the way I'm practicing. I'm just not sure yet in what way I want to change it.Another thing is, I do sometimes jam over a vamp at home with Band-In-A-Box as part of my practicing, but then the style will be so much different from what I am doing with this band I was rehearsing with last night.So, my next question would be: do any of you know a preferable online resource for playalongs in that kind of electronic-house-techno style?I know this is a long post, sorry about that, but I'm just so frustrated about my playing right now, had to ask some questions....Lars:wave: before i got into studying jazz/music theory.. i was HEAVY into electronic jam bands... such as Disco Biscuits or Sound Tribe Sector 9 The Disco biscuits are the perfect example of jamming over electronic {censored}. lemme give ya some links... also, go to archive.org and search The Disco Biscuits... listen to some of their shows to get an idea. playing over breakbeats, and electronic music is one of my favorite things to do...here are abunch of vids.. and if you go to archive, and do what i did, i downloaded a bunch of their shows and just jammed along.. alot of fun stuff. just do a search for this band. tell me what ya think.. alot of people dont like the singing, i grew to love it.. and the music is what really matters anyways.
Members Santuzzo Posted September 2, 2007 Author Members Posted September 2, 2007 Thanks everyone for your advice and ideas !Jawbreaker, thanks for those links, I will check them out ! One thing is for sure : I will have to devote more of my practice time to improvisation as opposed to technical exercises.
Members austinrocks Posted September 2, 2007 Members Posted September 2, 2007 I find playing to backing tracks helps, http://www.guitarbt.com/ is good for free backing tracks, really helps with my improv skills.
Members Terje Posted September 4, 2007 Members Posted September 4, 2007 To just improvise over a set of chord changes is difficult and demands lots of imagination. Especially if it's something modal and just a few chords. Most of us end up sounding really boring very quickly. It takes a master to improvise in an interesting manner over So What (and for those who don't know the story, even Miles had to have his solos edited before it ewas released). A much easier way to become more interesting is to start with a strong melody. You're gonna have to find out yourself but a few examples are All of Me, All The Things You Are, Lover Man, You Don't Know What Love Is, Autumn Leaves and Out of Nowhere. For example. A good way to spot a great melody is to play it without the accompaniment and listen if it still stands up. Even a not so skilled improviser can start out by making variations on the chosen melody. Gradually you can stray further and further away from the original melody eventually creating your own. Trial and error basically. Knowing the arpeggios will give you more material to work with, or a better grip of the materials available to you. A sonog that has a strong melody and fairly busy changes tends to "play itself" a lot more than a song with a weak melody and few changes. The initial work you have to put in to learn the first song is paid back in full when you stand there in front of an audience because even if you aren't very creative in that moment you can "just play the song" and it will still sound at least good. But on a song like So What good simply isn't good enough. It'll be boring very fast.
Members bigdaddydave Posted September 4, 2007 Members Posted September 4, 2007 I know this is a long post, sorry about that, but I'm just so frustrated about my playing right now, had to ask some questions....Lars:wave: Hey-everybody has an off night. It's been my experience that on the nights I think I'm Hendrix re-incarnated people don't care, but on the nights I think I suck everyone tells me how great it sounded. Anyway, your problem is nothing that practice won't solve-get to work!
Members Santuzzo Posted September 4, 2007 Author Members Posted September 4, 2007 before i got into studying jazz/music theory.. i was HEAVY into electronic jam bands...such as Disco Biscuits or Sound Tribe Sector 9The Disco biscuits are the perfect example of jamming over electronic {censored}.lemme give ya some links...also, go to archive.org and search The Disco Biscuits... listen to some of their shows to get an idea.playing over breakbeats, and electronic music is one of my favorite things to do...here are abunch of vids.. and if you go to archive, and do what i did, i downloaded a bunch of their shows and just jammed along.. alot of fun stuff.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Yjd_SeDl4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlqzMcJQFw0&mode=related&search=just do a search for this band. tell me what ya think.. alot of people dont like the singing, i grew to love it.. and the music is what really matters anyways. Thanks for those links, really interesting stuff!I noticed, most of thep laying is very repetitive motifs, so not really "solos" as such but repeating certain patterns or motifs !Maybe I should get into that kind of approach!
Members Santuzzo Posted September 4, 2007 Author Members Posted September 4, 2007 I find playing to backing tracks helps, http://www.guitarbt.com/ is good for free backing tracks, really helps with my improv skills. Thanks, man !I know that site, great backing tracks, indeed !
Members Santuzzo Posted September 4, 2007 Author Members Posted September 4, 2007 To just improvise over a set of chord changes is difficult and demands lots of imagination. Especially if it's something modal and just a few chords. Most of us end up sounding really boring very quickly. It takes a master to improvise in an interesting manner over So What (and for those who don't know the story, even Miles had to have his solos edited before it ewas released). A much easier way to become more interesting is to start with a strong melody. You're gonna have to find out yourself but a few examples are All of Me, All The Things You Are, Lover Man, You Don't Know What Love Is, Autumn Leaves and Out of Nowhere. For example. A good way to spot a great melody is to play it without the accompaniment and listen if it still stands up. Even a not so skilled improviser can start out by making variations on the chosen melody. Gradually you can stray further and further away from the original melody eventually creating your own. Trial and error basically. Knowing the arpeggios will give you more material to work with, or a better grip of the materials available to you. A sonog that has a strong melody and fairly busy changes tends to "play itself" a lot more than a song with a weak melody and few changes. The initial work you have to put in to learn the first song is paid back in full when you stand there in front of an audience because even if you aren't very creative in that moment you can "just play the song" and it will still sound at least good. But on a song like So What good simply isn't good enough. It'll be boring very fast. Thankks for your input !I agree with that !It IS difficult to keep it interesting over simple chord changes or vamps.I think simplicity is the key here and then, like you said, variation of a theme or melody! That is a good approach.I have not heard of the Miles-editing story ...So, are you saying his solo was not a one-take?
Members Santuzzo Posted September 4, 2007 Author Members Posted September 4, 2007 Hey-everybody has an off night. It's been my experience that on the nights I think I'm Hendrix re-incarnated people don't care, but on the nights I think I suck everyone tells me how great it sounded. Anyway, your problem is nothing that practice won't solve-get to work! thanks ! I agree here, too. Usually when I suck I first get pretty furstrated but then sit on my ass and practice harder and get over it. Frustration is just part of the game.
Members Knottyhed Posted September 5, 2007 Members Posted September 5, 2007 Thanks for those links, really interesting stuff!I noticed, most of thep laying is very repetitive motifs, so not really "solos" as such but repeating certain patterns or motifs !Maybe I should get into that kind of approach! Yeh - you were probably trying to shoe-horn jazz ideas over fast, repetetive electronic music. Not really going to work. I think when improvising over that sort of stuff you need to find a hook, a riff or even just cool sound effects to fit in with it... doing fast, flashy solo's over a very repetive, driving electronic song is *very* difficult, it usually ends up sounding extremely cheesey. I generally find slow solo's with strong melody will fit better over fast electronic beats.
Members Terje Posted September 5, 2007 Members Posted September 5, 2007 I have not heard of the Miles-editing story ... So, are you saying his solo was not a one-take? Don't know how many takes they did but for most jazz recording sessions you'll find more than one take of each song. And in the case of Kind of Blue they let the musicians stretch out in very long solos that were then edited.
Members bigdaddydave Posted September 5, 2007 Members Posted September 5, 2007 Although I don't know very much about "electronica" or its many sub-genres, it does seem to be pretty static harmonically (not a surprise since any kind of "dance music" tends to emphasize rhythm). Maybe you could look at this as a kind of a "pedal" over which you could super-impose some interesting stuff. Being that there's not much "harmony" getting in your way you could just let go and descend into atonal bliss.
Members 1001gear Posted September 6, 2007 Members Posted September 6, 2007 That's where the concept of architecture comes in. You've got to make 'nothing' go on for a couple minutes straight.
Members Santuzzo Posted September 7, 2007 Author Members Posted September 7, 2007 Yeh - you were probably trying to shoe-horn jazz ideas over fast, repetetive electronic music. Not really going to work. I think when improvising over that sort of stuff you need to find a hook, a riff or even just cool sound effects to fit in with it... doing fast, flashy solo's over a very repetive, driving electronic song is *very* difficult, it usually ends up sounding extremely cheesey. I generally find slow solo's with strong melody will fit better over fast electronic beats. Yeah, I think this is really where I was going wrong. I keep trying to play solos as I would in jazz or other stuff, and forget this music is supposed to be for dancing. Had another rehearsal last night, it was a bit better, but I still think I was not doing very well. actually I find it very difficult to play slow, hooky melodies that are strong and can be used repetitively.
Members Santuzzo Posted September 7, 2007 Author Members Posted September 7, 2007 Don't know how many takes they did but for most jazz recording sessions you'll find more than one take of each song. And in the case of Kind of Blue they let the musicians stretch out in very long solos that were then edited. Oh, so, his solo was edited. I did not know that. But, still does not take anything away from Miles, that solo is awesome !
Members gennation Posted September 7, 2007 Members Posted September 7, 2007 Not sure if this has been mentioned yet... You can use an old horn trick, play two measure, breath for one measure. Many times players are so concerned about what they play and forget about what/when not to play. This technique is a true blue aspect of playing modally, like when you're playing over one static chord vamp/section.
Members Terje Posted September 7, 2007 Members Posted September 7, 2007 Oh, so, his solo was edited. I did not know that.But, still does not take anything away from Miles, that solo is awesome ! A recording is a recording and no matter how you do it, in some way a recording is going to be "cheating" when compared to live. Even live recordings! What matters is the result and yes, I like that solo too.
Members gennation Posted September 7, 2007 Members Posted September 7, 2007 Oh, so, his solo was edited. I did not know that. But, still does not take anything away from Miles, that solo is awesome ! You know I have Miles solo transcribed for guitar at my lesson site, right?http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Transcriptions/SoWhatTrumpetSolo.htmAs well as the quirky Bill and Paul intro to the song...this intro was made for guitar, it's sweet how all the "voicing" are nothing more than simply barre chord fragments on guitar. Who would've though...http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Transcriptions/SoWhatIntro.htmI'm putting togeth some new studies on Modal playing as well as Key/Functional playing that would be a big help to you I sure. But, they are quite a ways out right now I could do a webcam lesson of some of it though.
Members gennation Posted September 7, 2007 Members Posted September 7, 2007 Don't know how many takes they did but for most jazz recording sessions you'll find more than one take of each song. And in the case of Kind of Blue they let the musicians stretch out in very long solos that were then edited.We can thank Les Paul for all of this
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