Jump to content
HAPPY NEW YEAR, TO ALL OUR HARMONY CENTRAL FORUMITES AND GUESTS!! ×

Pentonic Scales


Knottyhed

Recommended Posts

  • Members
Posted

Here's something quite cool I noticed a while back that might give you some new ways of looking at old scales.

 

If you add all the pentatonic scales for each chord in a key together you will get every single note in that key:

 

E.g. C major

 

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, (Bdim)

 

Cmaj/Am pentatonic = A, C, D, E, G

Gmaj/Em pentatonic = E, G, A, B, D

Fmaj/Dm pentatonic = D, F, G, A, C

  • Moderators
Posted

B dim penta = B D F G A

G dom penta = G A B D F

 

The major and minor pentatonics are one way to look at chords but they limit the chords to a:

min7 add 11 for minor pent (where's the 9th and the major 6th?) or a

major 69 chord for major pent (where's the 7th and the 11th / #11th?).

 

You have to get comfortable with pentatonic substitutions in order to find the pentatonic scales that will yield the 9th of a minor chord or the 7th of a major chord. This is the basis of pentatonic substitutions used in fusion / jazz. It's a worthwhile exercise by the way and another way to learn more about how chords and chord substitution works.

 

I built my chord knowledge the other way around. I started with triads, then 7th chords, then 9th chords. then 11th's. I actually learned the pentatonic scales last. My original training was jazz based and so drove the 7th chord and 9th chord agenda.

  • Moderators
Posted

Knotty,

 

I should have started with "Nice job".

 

Another way to think about major pentatonics is that their are derived by eliminating (from the 7-note major scale) those scale degrees that vary between the various major modes (Ionian, Lydian & Mixolydian).

 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

 

So eliminate the 4/#4 and the 7/b7 to get the major pentatonic: 1 2 3 5 6

 

Likewise the minor pentatonics are derived by eliminating (from the 7-note minor scale) those scale degrees that vary between the various minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian & Aeolian)

.

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

 

So eliminate the 2/b2 and the 6/b6 to get the minor pentatonic: 1 b3 4 5 b7

  • Members
Posted

I'd think that would be fairly obvious to see, the major pentatonic (or as you're presenting them, the relative minor pentatonics of a major chord) is just a selection of notes from a major scale.

  • Members
Posted

 

I'd think that would be fairly obvious to see, the major pentatonic (or as you're presenting them, the relative minor pentatonics of a major chord) is just a selection of notes from a major scale.

 

 

Thanks for the troll. Whilst it is obvious to everyone that Em/Gmaj pentatonic is a stripped down version of the Em/Gmaj scale it isn't so obvious that several other pentatonics are contained within that scale.

  • Members
Posted

 

Thanks for the troll. Whilst it is obvious to everyone that Em/Gmaj pentatonic is a stripped down version of the Em/Gmaj scale it isn't so obvious that several other pentatonics are contained within that scale.

 

 

Right.

 

The way I've tried to visualise it on the fretboard is through the modal system, using the root intervals of Ionian to link up the 7 "boxed" mode shapes. You can then reduce these down to their basic major/minor pentatonic shapes and use these for varying pentatonic "flavours". This gives you a lot of tensions to work with over the fretboard (obviously up to the individual to work out which tensions work over which progressions), whilst still keeping with the convenience of the familiar pentatonic shapes.

  • Members
Posted

Yeh - that's pretty much how it works for me too... I 'see' the 7 3-note-per-string "modal patterns", with the CAGED patterns, pentatonic patterns and the arpeggio's contained within those patterns.

  • Members
Posted

I always looked at the Major Pentatonic scale as the "skeleton" of all the Major Modes...the Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian scale. They each contain the R 2 M3 5 6.

 

And, the Blues Scale as the "skeleton" of all the Minor Modes...the Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, and Lorcrian. between them they contain the R b3 4 b5 5 b7.

 

Then of course for "Dominant" type music (rock, blues, jazz blues, country, fusion, etc...) there the "Super-imposed Scale"...

 

a way of taken basic scales and connecting the unconnected dots ;)

 

You can accomplish a number of "bigger" scales by using two of the most common Rock and Pentatonic scales...if you combine the Blues scale with the Major Pentatonic from the same Root you end up with the Minor Pent, Major Pent, Blues, Dorian, Mixolydian, Lydian Dominant, and a ton more scales ALL IN ONE SCALE.

 

Look at it from 1st Positions G Blues scale:

 

E---------------------------------------3--6-

B---------------------------------3--6-------

G------------------------3--5--6-------------

D------------------3--5----------------------

A---------3--4--5----------------------------

E---3--6--------------------------------------

 

And, a 1st Position G Major Pentatonic:

 

E---------------------------------3--5-

B---------------------------3--5-------

G---------------------2--4-------------

D---------------2--5-------------------

A---------2--5-------------------------

E---3--5-------------------------------

 

Now place one on top of the other, "super-imposing" them....

 

G Super-Imposed scale

 

E------------------------------------------------------3--5--6-

B---------------------------------------------3--5--6----------

G---------------------------------2--3--4--5-------------------

D------------------------2--3--5-------------------------------

A------------2--3--4--5----------------------------------------

E---3--5--6-----------------------------------------------------

 

That takes care of everything minus a b2, b6, and M7. So, those 3 notes will "blend in" just fine with all the other notes.

 

Here's a picture to SHOW you the connecting notes...

 

Lesson1.JPG

 

This is what most people really play out of...hardly ever ONE scale. Most rockers...Young, Page, Betts, Slash, it's really an endless list, incorporate all of this...and since it's only 3 notes away froma COMPLETELY Chromatic scale, You can also use for Pass, Atkins, Skaggs, Lee, Mclaughlin, and this is an endless list too.

 

Now place this scale ALL OVER the fretboard and you've locked the Holy Grail:

 

Lesson11.JPG

 

Now let me show you how to use it in MANY MANY different styles from Rock, Blues, Jazz, Fusion, Country, etc, etc...

 

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm

 

MAKE SURE YOU READ THE INTRODUCTION!!!! It'll show you how I went about finding it, what the lesson is about, and how it will be used for the rest of your life :)

 

There's tabs, diagrams, audio, explanations, and more include in the lesson...AND it's free! (and, I'll show you how to incorporate those 3 left over notes too! so you have a full chromatic scale)

 

Have fun!!!

  • Moderators
Posted

 

Yeh - that's pretty much how it works for me too... I 'see' the 7 3-note-per-string "modal patterns", with the CAGED patterns, pentatonic patterns and the arpeggio's contained within those patterns.

 

 

From my perspective this is the best way to approach scale patterns . . . to be able to see how various patterns relate / overlap.

 

In real life (while playing) nobody stays in any one system or pattern for very long, we all move around for specific phrasing or mechanical efficiency reasons, . . just as we should.

 

The purpose of scale patterns and the best reason to study them is to learn to understand to see the larger fretboard as a whole system that encompasses all of the various patterns and systems. It's a bit counterintuitive that we study patterns so that we won't need them.

 

Hard-core arpeggio study leads to a better understanding and view of chord voicings, chord substitution, etc. The difficult thing is working through all of the drudgery of scale and arpeggio patterns (when we first start working on them) and doing it long enough to realize the benefits that eventually come from long-term study of these things.

  • Members
Posted

 

Another way to think about major pentatonics is that their are derived by eliminating (from the 7-note major scale) those scale degrees that vary between the various major modes (Ionian, Lydian & Mixolydian).

...

...

Likewise the minor pentatonics are derived by eliminating (from the 7-note minor scale) those scale degrees that vary between the various minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian & Aeolian)

 

 

Those were helpful for me when I was trying to figure out modes...except when I learned it, it was more like adding 2 notes to the pentatonics instead of subtracting notes from a major scale mode. Same difference. I came from a rock background so the guys I was trying to emulate were mainly playing pentatonic/blues riffs and sometimes (or a lot of times) adding dorian or mixolydian sounds.

 

I think thats a good way to learn it - learning pentatonic scales and then adding a couple notes here and there. The pentatonic scales are so versitile (can also be thought of as chords) so they're useful to know. For a beginner it gives a sepping stone to learning modes later...and without being overwhelmed by all the notes...and its more of a functional way of learning it (parallel modes) as opposed to the way a lot of people teach modes (relative).

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...