Members alez Posted September 28, 2007 Members Posted September 28, 2007 Gentlemen, May I use your ears and theory knowledge to better understand this tune I'm trying to solo over. It's from an amateur band I've joined and I'm lost with it. If you could have a listen here, it's a little fragment not to waste too much of your time:http://www.telefonica.net/web2/alez2/changes.mp3 It would be extremely useful to have the chords confirmed and analyzed, I think it's 4 chords throughout. Bass seems to be doing: Ab, C, Gb, Db I think guys said chords are: Ab, Cm, Gb, Db (they use triads I think) My ear tells me the tonic sound of the progression is Ab, I'm feeling the song like it's in a Ab maj key. Using a scale for each chord when soloing seems to work well. So, if I'm already soloing over it, why do I want to analyze this? Well, I'm thinking that a better understanding of it would allow me to choose more interesting scales, adding interesting extensions to these triads. If you assume Ab maj, there's a non diatonic Gb bass tone / chord which would suggest it's a kind of Ab mixolidian (which still is a major key as opposed to minor), but then I think the Cm chord is not diminished so I'm not taking this thought very seriously. If you analyze the progression, it gives: I, IIIm, bVII, IV. Perhaps uglier than deciding that the key is Db, which yields: V, VIIm, IV, I. Although again VIIm is not diatonic. And then there's my stubborn ear insisting that the tonic sound is Ab and not Db. I'm assuming you won't be curious about the band, but if you are, please honour us by visiting:http://www.myspace.com/limandoelserruchohttp://www.limando.com/ Thanks for any comments! Cheers, Alex
Moderators Jed Posted September 28, 2007 Moderators Posted September 28, 2007 A bVII is a common harmonic technique, used in literally millions of songs. you can think of it as coming from the VII dim triad (with the root lowered 1/2 step). In Ab major, (I agree Ab is the tonal center) then the VIIdim would be Gdim = G Bb Db, lower the root 1/2 step to get Gb (maj) = Gb Bb Db. Or you can think of it as being derived from the Vmin. In Ab major, the V chord is Eb (maj) = Eb G Bb, Vmin would be Eb min = Eb Gb Bb. Eb min7 = Eb Gb Bb Db - aka a Gb maj6 = Gb Bb Db Eb. This is a very common group of chords and strongly leads to the Db (IV chord) but never establishes Db major as the key. Nice job induding the short clip (that did not require downloading), it makes it much easier to response to questions like yours. I hope this helps, cheers. Edit - PS:Like you, I hear the song in Ab major with just that short (single chord) as drifting away from the main tonality. The chord scale for a bVII maj is typically Lydian. Your first analysis in Ab makes much more sense to me (and my ear) than does the Db version. I think it would be interesting to look at the pentatonic substitutions for the various chords to find some interesting lines in and around that progression. It might be nice to step-out (way out?) every now and then since the harmony is so steady and well defined.
Moderators Jed Posted September 28, 2007 Moderators Posted September 28, 2007 Alex, I just noticed that you are in Madrid. Yo estudi a l'Universidad de Navarra en Pamplona. Hace triente-y-quartro a
Members alez Posted September 29, 2007 Author Members Posted September 29, 2007 Hi there, Thank you so much for you excellent explanation, which is exactly what I wanted. Thanks, very helpful indeed. There I go, some kind of Vm in the middle of a major progression, moreover a common technique and a common chord sequence.. Oh well, I have so much to learn and I really like the stuff. I just noticed that you are in Madrid. Yo estudi a l'Universidad de Navarra en Pamplona. Hace triente-y-quartro a
Members gennation Posted September 30, 2007 Members Posted September 30, 2007 JedL's got the theory part for you. Some things to play with...to go along with your "play a different scale" over it as you said. Without getting too technical, here's a couple of other things you might flesh out of this... This progression is VERY similar to Lay Lady Lay by Bob Dylan. The progression they're playing IS the hook of Bob's song. After a couple turns of playing your scales you could lock into Bob's melody "super-imposing it" over your song. It'll fit like a glove. There's also a couple of "fresh views" you could try to pull the harmony over the chords...try a Gbmaj7 in place of the Gb, and a Bbm7 in place of the Db... ||: Ab | Cm | Gbmaj7 | Bbm7 :|| Playing wise, try these as arps over the original chords, so YOU'RE harmonizing over the original chords as the band is playing them. Of course you could also go ||: Abmaj7 | Cm7 | Gbmaj | Bbm7 :|| too, playing those extensions over the first two chords too. You can use them together like that, or only replace one of the chords at a time. But, harmonize those extensions over their chords.
Members alez Posted October 1, 2007 Author Members Posted October 1, 2007 Thanks a lot! I don't know Lay Lady Lay but I'll listen to it shortly As for the chords with added extensions, that's more or less what I was thinking too. To be more precise, knowing what the progession actually is, I think next rehearsal I'll be trying: ||: AbMaj6 | % | Ebm7 | DbMaj6 :|| or ||: AbMaj6 | % | GbMaj6 | DbMaj6 :|| That sort of thing should help me take this exercise to sounds I'm more familiar with, which should be useful. Simplification through complication?? Anything goes I would tend to leave the DbMaj alone (not see it as a Bbm) as I tend to see Bbm more as a "kind of E7", i.e. a little more towards dominant (playing V7 over iim seems to work quite well for me more often than not). Thank you!
Members alez Posted October 3, 2007 Author Members Posted October 3, 2007 This is a very common group of chords and strongly leads to the Db (IV chord) but never establishes Db major as the key. I was thinking about this.. is it not a little strange that it's a "very common group of chords and strongly leads to the Db" given that Gb to Db is a 4th down / 5th up change which in theory should be quite regressive? That said, from ear I have to agree with you that it sounds nice and natural. Cheers, Alex
Members guitarviz Posted October 3, 2007 Members Posted October 3, 2007 This progression is VERY similar to Lay Lady Lay by Bob Dylan. The progression they're playing IS the hook of Bob's song. One small difference might be the last chord of the progression? In Lay Lady Lay I think it's the ii chord? (Bbm if in key of Ab); instead of the IV chord as in the clip. but I'm doing it from memory so my ears might be remembering wrong. Also of course the ii chord and the IV chord are very similar in sound so doesn't make a whole lot of difference, just a minor (no pun intended) observation. Also I see you suggested later in your post to use a Bbm7 instead of the Db.
Members gennation Posted October 3, 2007 Members Posted October 3, 2007 One small difference might be the last chord of the progression? In Lay Lady Lay I think it's the ii chord? (Bbm if in key of Ab); instead of the IV chord as in the clip. but I'm doing it from memory so my ears might be remembering wrong. Also of course the ii chord and the IV chord are very similar in sound so doesn't make a whole lot of difference, just a minor (no pun intended) observation. Also I see you suggested later in your post to use a Bbm7 instead of the Db. Yeah, the Bbm7 almost sounds more "correct" with the G->B being a M3 and Gb->Bb being a M3. Kind of turns it into a sequence or cascade. Keeps things moving in the same direction, or in a similar fashion. But the IIm7 and IV chords are very similar in a way a VIm7 and I chord are.
Members alez Posted October 3, 2007 Author Members Posted October 3, 2007 Nice one, guys. I listened to Lay Lady Lay for the first time and my toughts were as per your posts
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