Modes (again, I know): question on use, not theory

[Jed]

Lastly, someone made a comment about theory being a device for keeping guitar teachers working. I can't speak for anyone else, but if money were my primary motivator, I would be organizing my efforts VERY differently! I probably wouldn't teach at all!

 

 

Umm, . . er, . . that would be me.

 

 

I'd say learn the major scale in every key. Then learn to harmonize the major key and practice harmonizing the major scale in every key, including learning every chord spelling. Study the sh** out of the major scale in every key and every possible variation all over the fretboard and you'll understand all the theory most people will ever need. By the time you are half way through the above, you'll understand exactly what modes are and are not. And you'll realize that the whole concept of modes has been blown out of all proportion for the sake of selling guitar books and methods.

 

 

I was of course talking about all the "Master the Modes in 5 Minutes" and the "Secret of Modes Revealed" phrases that are so commonly used as ad copy for the latest "Ultimate Guitar Method" that seem be be hawked on every corner of the internet.

 

I certainly didn't meant to disparage any of the accomplished guitarists who teach (and who by the way avoid such language in their ad copy) or theory / musical knowledge in general.

 

cheers,

[raggety]

 

This is where a lot of players get confused. They ask; "How come when I play the D dorian scale it sounds the same as the C major scale?" Of course it does, cause it is! It's not the scale, it's the chord that counts. If you play a C major scale, D to D, over a C major chord, it's gonna sound like a C major scale cause that's what it is. You have to use the mode over the appropriate chord to get the effect. In this case, you have to play the D dorian mode over a D minor chord. Matter of fact, you don't even have to play it D to D, you just have to play a C major scale over a D minor chord to get the dorian sound. ? Remember: It isn't where you start and stop in the major scale, it's the chord or chord progression you play over. A Cmajor scale played over a D minor chord is a D dorian scale whether you start on the C note or not.

 

http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/modes_1.htm

[Hereticminor]

I'd like to add something to this debate. I haven't learned modes or understood them in the manner Gennation has explained them. When I go about soloing over any chord progression - built either on one parent scale (such as C Am F G - which is in C Major), or something like Jimi Hendrix' Little Wing (Em G Am Em Bm Am G F C D) where the scale changes from G Major to C Major, or other chord progression that modulates - I don't think much about scales, but go exploring possibilities aurally.

What I am saying is, I'll think of the C and Am in the first example as based in G Ionian, or other scales, and think of F and G as being on C Ionian or other scales, provided that a link is aurally made between the melodies I end up with. Going by the principle that both Major and minor chords could be either in Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian for Minor Chords and Ionin, Lydian and Myxolidian for Major Chords, I'll try to play around with some kind of combination of the following:

CMaj, Dm, Em, FMaj, GMaj, Am, BDim - C Major
GMaj, Am, Bm, CMaj, Dmaj, Em, F#Dim - G Major
FMaj, Gm, Am, BbMaj, Cmaj,Dm, EDim - F Major
DMaj, Em, F#m, GMaj, AMaj, Bm, C#dim - D Major
BbMaj, Cm, Dm, EbMaj, Fmaj, Gm, ADim - Bm Major

The above scales are very close to each other, serving as modulating points.

When I work out something like this, I try to add notes like F#, Bb, and/or Eb to C Ionion to play over the progression C Am F G. If I add a Bb to C (playing the note Bb to a CMajor chord), I'm changing the chord to C7th, aren't I?, making it a 5th chord. This will move the tonal center to FMaj in the progression. When I get to G, I may play G Mixo or G Lydian (or whatever works with the ideas worked on) to explore sounds. I usually experiment in this manner. Am I thinking modally here?

If I get it right - and I have an example here http://www.geocities.com/hereticlohani/flash/adhyatma.swf where I've played CMajor + Cmin modes to a Cmin chord (plus stuff I am, myself, not sure about) that sounds fitting in a mysterious and/or soulful way - would I be considered to have played modally here?

[gennation]

You're experimenting with Intervals and you're call them Mode names.

 

In the recording, of course you can do what you want, but there were only a couple of time when you truly hit on the right mode.

 

You can think all the Major scales over Major chords and all the Minor scale over Minor chords if you want. But, when you find the right Mode there is "something" at the heart of the most powerful/weighted sound for the chord. When you find that, you have "hit the mode"...regardless of names, patterns, scale families, etc...and everything else you play will be drawn back to it.

 

 

I'll think of the C and Am in the first example as based in G Ionian, or other scales, and think of F and G as being on C Ionian or other scales,

 

 

You can "think" what you want but the "music" lies soley in C Major here. If you think of C as the IV of G Ionian, you COMPLETELY miss that V-I that's happening in that G->C turnaround.

 

You can do what you want scale wise, but with further understanding of "chord function" you'd see you're missing an important factor in "music" as a whole.

 

 

something like Jimi Hendrix' Little Wing (Em G Am Em Bm Am G F C D) where the scale changes from G Major to C Major,

 

 

The chords should be:

 

Em G Am Em Bm Am C G F C D

 

Really the only chords that isn't in Em is F. Basic Mode wise, when playing over it you have F Ionian, F Lydian, and F Mixolydian to choose from (since they are the Major Modes). When you've choose the right one you'll know it.

 

To noodle names and notes around is fun, but to lock into the music going on is when you start deciding the best (actually most correct) Modes to use.

 

Have you ever played through So What by Miles Davis??? Give a shot, this is VERY Modal and not just a bunch of "testing the waters". Find a backing and try it...

 

As simple as it is, it will test your meddle.

 

 

Going by the principle that both Major and minor chords could be either in Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian for Minor Chords and Ionin, Lydian and Myxolidian for Major Chords, I'll try to play around with some kind of combination of the following: CMaj, Dm, Em, FMaj, GMaj, Am, BDim - C Major GMaj, Am, Bm, CMaj, Dmaj, Em, F#Dim - G Major FMaj, Gm, Am, BbMaj, Cmaj,Dm, EDim - F Major DMaj, Em, F#m, GMaj, AMaj, Bm, C#dim - D Major BbMaj, Cm, Dm, EbMaj, Fmaj, Gm, ADim - Bm Major The above scales are very close to each other, serving as modulating points.

 

 

Seem like you've learned Diatonic Theory but haven't drawn the line yet between it and Modal Music. And, it seems like you're not giving it the credit it's due since Diatonic Theory will teach you a lot about chord function, and playing over it.

 

Understanding chord function will help you draw some pretty big lines in the sand between chord function and Modal Music...Modes are used over "I chord". That's only one function.

 

Even though people learn Diatonic Theory, they still don't realize that "all those other outside notes" are really used when you "play in Key". IOW...

 

many people haven't realized that "playing in Key" doesn't necessarily mean "playing in one scale". ALL the other notes that aren't in the scale are still very important to the Key. Even though the Key is derived from the scale, there's a lot more than 7 notes to choose from when you play in Key.

 

It's a tough one to understand by learning Diatonic Theory without any music involved.

 

For Modes, do yourself a favor and take a couple of months working on So What. It'll show you quite a it about the Dorian Mode (in this case) and how to use all the other notes too.

[gennation]

Here's a backing of So What (courtesy of RedAnt): http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LJNOHJL0

 

Here's a quick straight thru take a did a few months ago when this backing was going around in Guitar Jam: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/miked/sowhatmix.mp3

 

It only has two chords: Dm7 and Ebm7 (use D Dorian and Eb Dorian respectively because they are treated as two Im7 chords a half step from each other)

 

You can use every other note you want, but make sure it means something to Dorian.

 

Have a try. Whether it's the first ever, this tune is the basis of most Modern Modal Music. If you want to pick up on what Modes really are this tune is worth engaging.

 

It would be cool to hear Pops, jonfinn, JedL and others post a take, I bet they'd be rippin'!

[Li Shenron]

99% of the talk about modes covers only how to use them but not why using them.

Modes are ultimately for writing songs. Rather than having a song already there and wondering which modes you should play on top of it, the ultimate purpose is wanting to write a song with a certain mood, and finding a proper starting point in the sound of a mode and its intervals.

But of course the majority of us (me first) has barely the time to play music, and not yet to make music, and everything said in this thread is very useful anyway.

[GreenAsJade]

Writing song ... improvising over songs... are they so different?

 

I think that most of the people trying to "get" modes are guitarists trying to figure out new/different ways of finding good leads. That's why "the song is already there" ... someone else wrote a chord sequence, the lead players job is to come up with something mind blowing, unique, moving etc etc every time. It would be nice if modes helped that

 

GaJ

[gennation]

 

99% of the talk about modes covers only how to use them but not why using them. Modes are ultimately for writing songs . Rather than having a song already there and wondering which modes you should play on top of it, the ultimate purpose is wanting to write a song with a certain mood, and finding a proper starting point in the sound of a mode and its intervals. But of course the majority of us (me first) has barely the time to play music, and not yet to make music, and everything said in this thread is very useful anyway.

 

 

Well there's really only reason why to use them, when the chord is a I chord.

 

I agree with the writing song statement for sure. But, I truly believe that people spend more time talking about them, not understanding them, and continue to relate them to basic Diatonic/function progression without EVER working with actual Modal Music.

 

Just look at some of the posts in this thread, most of people try to use them over functional progressions picking this name and that name and they get concepts so messed up they are confused for decades.

 

I say this all the time but it's what needs to be said at the beginning of every "modes" thread...start listening to Modal Music.

 

Most people don't even know there is a "Modal Music" out there. It's best to learn modes where modes are applied as the heart of the music, not sketched over progressions where they don't belong, just because a player doesn't even have a concept of where modes are used.

 

It's just like people wanted to learn about Jazz, listening and internalizing Jazz music and songs is a seriously important part when learning it...

 

there's no difference in that position when it comes to learning Modes. Listen and internalize Modal music.

[gennation]

Writing song ... improvising over songs... are they so different? I think that most of the people trying to "get" modes are guitarists trying to figure out new/different ways of finding good leads. That's why "the song is already there" ... someone else wrote a chord sequence, the lead players job is to come up with something mind blowing, unique, moving etc etc every time. It would be nice if modes helped that GaJ

Yes they are different.

"figure out new/different ways of finding good leads", this has NOTHING to do with why you use Modes. If you can't get new/different ideas, knowing when to use Modes is not the issue. If you needed Modes, there would only be ONE IDEA, and that idea would be Modal.

I'm sure I'm mentioned this earlier in the thread that people don't spend time learning enough functional theory to understand tension and resolution points. And, to top it off they use Modes to band aid it when Modes really only allows tension and resolution around one chord, the I chord. There really are no other chords involved Modally. But, with functional progressions you have tension and resolution, forward motion, substitutions, reharmonizations, etc...and this is all dictated how you "get to the I chord". In Modal Music you are really only concerned about the I chord itself.

"chord sequence" never, never, never JUST implies Modes are to be used. The song does.

I'm sure I mentioned this previously too...listen to So What, Impressions, Maiden Voyage, Footprints, some Ravi Shakar, Nefertiti, Blue In Green, etc...and learn some of them. Then listen to Satin Doll, Take the A Train, Giant Steps, In the Mood, Story Monday Blues, etc...and learn some of them. This will help you start drawing that huge line it the sand as to what Modal Music and Functional Music really is.

[Knottyhed]

By the time you are half way through the above, you'll undesrtand exactly what modes are and are not. And you'll realize that the whole concept of modes has been blown out of all proportion for the sake of selling guitar books and methods.

 

 

Absolutely, it seems modes get touted around like they are a big guitar secret. I spent a long time trying to get my head around it (like everyone), and eventually understood it not through studying modes, but through studying keys/scales and chords (and how they relate) - at which point the logic of modes is obvious.

 

I never advise anyone to study them, because I think if you need to ask about them, then you probably aren't in a position to understand them anyway.

[gennation]

Modes are adopted as the big guitar secret due to the fact that they are "the next patterns" guitarist learn. Then they believe they can adapted them to everything the SAME way they did to the first big guitar secret they learned, the Minor Pentatonic scale.

 

Again, when learning Modes and their patterns there is rarely, if ever, any talk regarding Modal Music. It's nothing but "these scales go with these chords" and "these chords are in the Key".

 

Musically there's a huge difference between LEARNING Diatonic Theory and PLAYING Modal Music. Modes are a very, very small part of the functional playing, but a HUGE part of Modal playing.

[Knottyhed]

Writing song ... improvising over songs... are they so different? I think that most of the people trying to "get" modes are guitarists trying to figure out new/different ways of finding good leads. That's why "the song is already there" ... someone else wrote a chord sequence, the lead players job is to come up with something mind blowing, unique, moving etc etc every time. It would be nice if modes helped that GaJ

You know, I think modes and what notes you play are the least important part of lead playing. Your phrasing, the rythmn you use and how you build one phrase into another are far more important. You can play an entire solo off key and if it grooves/fits with the rythm you can call it jazz.

[Hereticminor]

Thank you, Gennation, for clarifying a lot of things that I had taken for granted. I'll listen to So What (from Miles Davis I take it). I'll also try out the backing of So What and go through the other links you had posted on modal concepts. I think I'm finally beginning to see a difference between functional and modal music.

[gennation]

Thank you, Gennation, for clarifying a lot of things that I had taken for granted. I'll listen to So What (from Miles Davis I take it). I'll also try out the backing of So What and go through the other links you had posted on modal concepts. I think I'm finally beginning to see a difference between functional and modal music.

 

 

That's cool. Modes are fun to learn, and even funner when you get to apply them in the right places. Yes, So What is Miles Davis. If interested I have a guitar transcription of Miles first solo from So What at my website: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Transcriptions/SoWhatTrumpetSolo.htm

 

It's cool to see how close Miles stays to the basic Minor chord, and also where he uses notes that aren't in Dorian but still relates/resolves them back.

 

I'm going to focusing some of my weekly lessons here on some simple Modal progressions to help people not only see where Modes are applied, but also some cool ways of applying them over the progressions.

[Hereticminor]

 

That's cool. Modes are fun to learn, and even funner when you get to apply them in the right places. Yes, So What is Miles Davis. If interested I have a guitar transcription of Miles first solo from So What at my website: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Transcriptions/SoWhatTrumpetSolo.htm It's cool to see how close Miles stays to the basic Minor chord, and also where he uses notes that aren't in Dorian but still relates/resolves them back. I'm going to focusing some of my weekly lessons here on some simple Modal progressions to help people not only see where Modes are applied, but also some cool ways of applying them over the progressions.

 

 

Thanks, Gennation, for the link and yes the lessons would be great. I'd be glad if you could clear another confusion. Let's take the earlier example (Am C F G). Let's stick to playing Am natural over it. Let's take it from the A note and get a melody going, so that we get to the C note when the chord goes to C. Then, let's say we do melodies to end up on the tonic of each chord thereafter. On the next take, let's say we start with the E note (Since Am is A C E with E being the P5), instead of A, and play a melody leading to E or G when the chord goes to C (CEG). Then strike A or C in F (FAC) and D or C in G (I've found that playing the C note to a G chord in this prog doesn't sound that discordant either. B will be off, so we'll avoid it.

 

My question to you is, when we played E to Am instead of A and min/maj 3rd and/or perfect 5th instead of the root note in the other chords, did we play modes, or just emphasized the min/maj and p5 feel in the chords.

 

My other question is, let's say we want to write a song in a particular mode. With Ionion chosen as the I chord, we can use tension chords in the scale or substitute other chords to get the progression back to the I chord - using the 5th chord, for example. Now, if we want to start a song in phrygian for example, I don't think the usual 5th chord of the parent scale would want to go back to the I chord in this case. So, does writing songs in various modes mean that we have to find a way for the music to go back or want to go back to that particular I chord used, thereby creating a melody that tells a story about the I chord used. Do we then alter some of the other chords - playing 7sus4ths, min/maj 6th/7th, 6/9 etc, to make the song go back to the tonic.

 

In the above example, can we consider Am C F G to be written in the Aeolian mode or is it more complex than that.

[Jasco]

Thanks.....is it more complex than that.

 

 

I believe you are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

[Hereticminor]

 

I believe you are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

 

 

Yes, it's very simple actually - spent some time thinking yesterday. Modes are everywhere. The typical verse and chorus of songs are two modes played in the same scale (if they start from different positions of the same scale, which they normally do). At a latter part, the same song could start from another position of the parent scale - that's another mode. Or, the song could modulate into another key and use modes available in the scale that belongs to that key.

 

Twinkle twinkle little star goes AA EE F#F# E DD DbDb BB AA: Verse (A Ionion - assuming it's in A). Chorus goes: EE DD DbDb B (E Mixolydian - assuming the whole song is in A). It's so simple.

 

Turns out, I hadn't misunderstood the principle. Just made a misnomer of it with reference to guitar soloing. Modes are what we could call dependent entities. That is, their presence, apparency or usefulness is depended on the "parent scale" from where they evolve. To say that one is playing D Mixo to Bb would be horribly wrong, because D mixo belongs to G Major Scale and is in the key of G. It's useful in situations where D occurs as the i chord in the key of G.

 

Still if one plays D Mixo on Bb, it would be nothing more than playing various intervals not naturally found on the Bb Major scale. Or, one could say that one is trying over the D Mixo "Scale" to a Bb Major Progression, not looking at D Mixo as a mode, but as another set of wholes and halves to work with.

 

I think the reason guitarists get confused with modes is due to their desire to play mysterious and exotic scales and think modes are the answer to that. They should rather think in terms of intervals and try out various combinations to get those sounds. Or compose the backing music modally.

 

Tonal music - where the tonal center is very well emphasized, because it has chords that can tell you what parent scale they're in and the key in question. Here, the modes used are known and if someone plays a tune from another key, it wouldn't be called playing modes, but trying out intervals. If I play A Aeolian to Am C F G, I'm in the right mode and would be playing modally, but if I play Bb Ionion to that, I'm just trying out intervals of A that happen to follow the sequence of wholes and halves available on the Bb Major Scale. I can't be called to have played modally in this case.

 

Modal music - where the tonal center cannot be determined due to fewer chords being involved that don't tell you where you are tonally. E7, A7, B7 for example. Or, A Major and B Major, or just A Major, or A5. Here, we have a lot of options depending on the number of scales that have both A Major and B Major that can be used. If one attempts to solo here, he or she would be playing modally. In fact, one could define the tonal center on such cases by playing melodies over them, since the chords, themselves, don't drive the theme home.