Modes (again, I know): question on use, not theory

[Jed]

Is the sound of notes from B Locrian scale against a C Major chord (or a Bm chord) a "Locrian" sound?

 

 

The sound of the B locrian scale over a C major chord is the C major (Ionian) sound. Some notes will sound good (the notes that "fit" over a C major chord) while other notes will sound bad (the notes that "don't fit" over a C major chord).

 

The sound of the notes from a C major (Ionian) scale over a Bmin7b5 chord is the Locrian sound. Some notes will sound good (the notes that "fit" over a Bmin7b5 chord) while other notes will sound bad (the notes that "don't fit" over a Bmin7b5 chord).

 

The chord defines the frame of reference by which the notes are heard. Repeat the above sentence three times. When you think in terms of scales, all you will hear are scales. When you think in terms of chords, you'll start to hear the chords within the scales. It's a subtle distinction. But it is this distinction you are wrestling with.

[Jed]

(wes, I understand that you have to know what notes make sense as well as knowing what scale to choose from. It's no good just randomly selecting notes from the 7 major scale notes, just like its no good selecting words randomly from a dictionary. BUT it is good knowing that narrowing down the choice in one way or another will give a particular effect... that's what I'm trying to come to grips with).

 

 

True, but the way to narrow down the choices is with chords not modes. Clearly you want to understand modes, but that's not really possible until you understand keys, functional harmony and how the various chords and chord tones function relative to the chords and relative to the various keys.

 

Once you understand this stuff, the nature of modes will seem simple and not very important. Looking to modes to get the effects you're talking about is just looking in all the wrong places.

[gennation]

I haven't...Major and Ionian are the same. Aeolian and minor are the same. I think you're limiting the application of modes, and that's a mistake. All are just different combinations of notes, no more, no less. Looking at it from this viewpoint makes it easy to understand and more usable. If you're referring to Major and Minor in the context of parent key families; ie Major family of Lydian, Ionian, Major, Harmonic Major, etc, then fine, but again, I'm referring to singular mode tonal centers for the sake of the discussion and as a beginning step to using modes.

 

 

Well, we are talking Modes. In history you had a couple of Modes...they weren't created within each other, they were completely disparate of each other and actually you only had one Root for the Mode, IOW, the Mode was ALWAYS from the same Root.

 

As time went on new modes were discovered. These were used as Modal Chants, or just Chants back then. They are also called the Church Modes (Locrian being created ONLY to complete the logic).

 

As more time went on, the organization of Keys developed. This was WAY after Modes/Modal Music/Chants were being used.

 

Today we have two types of Keys, Major and Minor, there is no "Key of Dorian" or "Key of Lydian" etc...

 

These kinds of Keys are different than Modes.

 

Calling Aeolian and the Minor Key the same is not correct. The Minor Key actually has a V7 when the Aeolian has a Vm7. This is another part that you only get by reading or studying this stuff.

 

Bottom line when "using Modes" is, the more chords from a Diatonic Key, the less Modal is it and the less chords from a Diatonic Key, the more Modal it is. This is almost a Golden Rule (if there is one).

 

Here's an example of how not understanding Functional theory and Modal theory hinders people...

 

when you learn "modes" you learn that Mixolydian creates a dom7 chord, right. Well, on it's own it does, but in Key it creates a V7 functionality.

 

When you have one chord and it's a dom7, Mixloydian is great...because you are treating it as I7 chord. When a dom7 chord is used as a V7, Mixolydian is not your scale, your chord tomes are as far as the Key, but V7's going to resolve to a I chord. So, you can treat that V7 as V7 by altering the sound to create tension that resolves on the REAL I chord.

 

Function wise I can really only think of one "Modal progression" where there's real resolution/functioning chords, and that's still a little on the wire so I won't even mention it.

 

There are MANY songs that utilize Modes, but again that's by composition.

[GreenAsJade]

Woo hoo !!!

 

(Does a dance around the room).

 

Somewhere along the lines some started showing guitarist these Mode names over "patterns" while they were actually showing how to play a Major scale up the fretboard. That's where the Name->Pattern issue starts for most guitarists. A pattern can be all the Modes, but it's the application of what your playing that would determine the Mode name, not the pattern.

 

I _knew_ it. This soooooo explains the problem I was having!

 

The way you guys are now describing it, it makes sense. And yet there is soooooo much stuff out there that you can read that leads you right in the opposite direction!

 

That statement (quoted above) should be nailed to the top of the sticky thread about modes. I could have skipped the whole rest of that (large meadering ) thread!

 

GaJ

[Jed]

When you have one chord and it's a dom7, Mixloydian is great...because you are treating it as I7 chord. When a dom7 chord is used as a V7, Mixolydian is not your scale, your chord tomes are as far as the Key, but V7's going to resolve to a I chord. So, you can treat that V7 as V7 by altering the sound to create tension that resolves on the REAL I chord.

 

 

Genn,

 

I understand you point and from a technical POV you are right regarding modal vs functional harmony. But the part you and I often haggle over is the concept of chord scales versus modes. A chord scale has the same name and the same formula / notes as it's namesake in the modes. The only difference is in application.

 

A mode does not want to resolve, as you say it's all about the I chords of various types. A chord scale is just another way to think about the various extensions and avoid notes available to a functional chord. So a chord scale can be said to want to resolve just as it's chord function wants to resolve. Chord scales are a Functional Harmony concept that utilizes the mode formula to organize / define available notes.

 

More and more often it is chord scales that people are talking about when they use the terms modes in a non-modal setting. To be honest, this use of the mode names is substantially more common than an actual mode used in a true modal setting.

 

cheers,

[GreenAsJade]

So - is it a logical next step to say:

 

"

If you are a beginning guitarist figuring out theory to help you with improvisation, FORGET MODES.

 

Learn the friggin scales. Then learn chord theory, and how to adjust scales you play to match the chords. By the time you have that, you will have a good basis for varied improvisation, and you possibly have the theory basis to move on to modes.

"

 

Is that a fair statement?

 

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

More and more often it is chord scales that people are talking about when they use the terms modes in a non-modal setting. To be honest, this use of the mode names is substantially more common than an actual mode used in a true modal setting.

 

... or does this fact mean that as a guitarist out there trying to work with people who are talking about modes when they mean scales imply that I have to come to grips with what _those_ people are talking about, even if it's not true "modal setting" ?

 

In which case WTF are they talking about, exactly?

 

Thx!

 

GaJ

[Jed]

"If you are a beginning guitarist figuring out theory to help you with improvisation, FORGET MODES. Learn the friggin scales. Then learn chord theory, and how to adjust scales you play to match the chords. By the time you have that, you will have a good basis for varied improvisation, and you possibly have the theory basis to move on to modes." Is that a fair statement?

 

 

I'd say learn the major scale in every key.

Then learn to harmonize the major key and practice harmonizing the major scale in every key, including learning every chord spelling.

Study the sh** out of the major scale in every key and every possitble variation all over the fretboard and you'll understand all the theory most people will ever need.

 

By the time you are half way through the above, you'll undesrtand exactly what modes are and are not. And you'll realize that the whole concept of modes has been blown out of all proportion for the sake of selling guitar books and methods.

[blumonk]

So this instructional video I bought for 39.99 on how to use the aeolian mode was a waste of money?

[gennation]

How about some understanding by listening. I've jam with some guys over the years and much of what we play and write has quite a bit of Modal aspects.

I've done stuff like this before but...I'll go back to those three basic Modal types of music I mentioned and show/explain them through some tunes...

Pure Modal - This is a piece I wrote against some tensions/mirco tones I found in the Lydian scale. The whole piece is in E Lydian. Lydian is supposed to be a happy scale, Major sounding, and the "brightest" scale so I've heard...here's it sounds dark as can be, but this is NOTHING but E Lydian played against an E Drone: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD1/elydian.mp3

Jazz Modal - Those last two chord progressions (the D-Dm and the Em-C9)I posted fit this style quite well. But, here's a tune in the Vai style but still has the "small groups of disparate chords played for long times" mentality.

Modern Modal - The first/main part is just Eadd9 and Aadd9 chords back and forth, and using Lydian for each chord, so all it uses it E Lydian and A Lydian. In the end part of the song I use Eadd9, Gadd9, and Aadd9 chords. I haven't got to recording the solo yet, but it would be using E Lydian, G Lydian, and A Lydian. Try playing over the end part using those scales, you'll HEAR it: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/LimitedAbility_NotFinished.mp3

Here's an example of a song one of my friends wrote that has many Modal stops along the way. The chords progression is:

||: Emaj9 | Amaj7 | Emaj9 | Amaj7 | Emaj9 | Amaj7 | Dmaj9 | Cadd9 | Emaj9 | Amaj9 | Emaj9 | F#m9 | Emaj9 | A6/9 | Cmaj13 | Cmaj13 | C#m7 | G#m7 Amaj9 | F#m9 | Amaj9 | Bsus4 | Cmaj#11| Cmaj#11 | Emaj9 | F#m9 | G#m7 | Amaj7 | G#m7 | F#m9 | Emaj9 | Emaj9 :||

It's beautiful melody but also REALLY nice to play over: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/TheMountainWaltz_wMD.mp3

The solo is improvised.

The Emaj, Amaj, F#m, G#m, C#m are all in the Key of E Major. But the Cmaj13 and Cmaj#11 are not. Those two chords are the "Modal aspects". I use C Ionian for Cmaj13 and C Lydian for Cmaj#11, thinking of those two chords as chords on their own their are treated as Imaj13 and Imaj#11. The rest of the tune is just "in E Major", not E Ionian, but E Major.

Jazz Modal - Here's a tune the same guy wrote, it's NOTHING but maj#11 chords. Every chord is treated as a Imaj#11. I used a combination of Lydian and Lydian Dominant over each chord. I also added to the fun a tried to hung as much tension on it as I could, without too much resolve, so there are times when the "scale name" didn't matter, it was a matter of kicking the tunes but into the land of tension. But it's still based in Modes and VERY Modal: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/DarkSpells_wMD.mp3

NOTE All of his tunes are copyrighted and published.

Modern Modal - Here's a Stanley Clarke tune that I recorded (I played all the instruments): http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/SongForJohnFinalMix.mp3

This progression is:

||: Cmaj9 | Cmaj9 | Cmaj9 | Cmaj9 | Am9 | Am9 | Am9 | Am9 | Bb7sus4 | Bb7sus4 | Bb7sus4 | Bb7sus4 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

Right off the bat you would think the Cmaj9 and Am9 would get C Major, you're not wrong, but C Lydian is a focus in this song. And, the Am9 uses a ambiguous Minor scale only using the A B C D E G, no 6th. Leaving out the 6th in over A is what allows the C to sound find with C Major OR C Lydian.

Go ahead, try a 6 or b6 (A Dorian or A Aeolian respectively) over that Am9 chord. Neither sounds wrong, but neither one really sounds best. Leaving the 6 out all together ALWAYS sounds best.

So, the C and Am chords are muit-modal in themselves. But here's the REAL Modal part, the Bb7sus4.

The Bb7sus4 chord is not in C Major or C Lydian, it's stands on it's own. Since it's by itself, I treat it as a I7 chord and use Bb Mixolydian.

I give some details behind this song in this tutorial: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Diatonic/ModalChordGrips2.htm

Modern Modal - I have another Modal tutorial here: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Diatonic/ModalExample1.htm

This deals with this progression: ||: Em | Em | Cmaj7#11 | Cmaj7#11 | Bm11 | Bm11 | Am11 | Cm11 :||

It's all in E Minor, except for the Cm11 chord. The tutorial goes in to "Modal deciphering" but just use C Dorian for the Cm11 chord and E Natural Minor for the rest of the tune. Here's the backing track: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD1/DanceWithYourself_Backing.mp3

That's a bunch of Modal stuff to not only understand, but you can hear it too, and try some Modal theory over it.

Enjoy!

[gennation]

Genn, I understand you point and from a technical POV you are right regarding modal vs functional harmony. But the part you and I often haggle over is the concept of chord scales versus modes. A chord scale has the same name and the same formula / notes as it's namesake in the modes. The only difference is in application. A mode does not want to resolve, as you say it's all about the I chords of various types. A chord scale is just another way to think about the various extensions and avoid notes available to a functional chord. So a chord scale can be said to want to resolve just as it's chord function wants to resolve. Chord scales are a Functional Harmony concept that utilizes the mode formula to organize / define available notes. More and more often it is chord scales that people are talking about when they use the terms modes in a non-modal setting. To be honest, this use of the mode names is substantially more common than an actual mode used in a true modal setting. cheers,

 

 

I appreciate all of this and understand exactly where you're coming from. Chord scales are great for not only building chords but also showing what chords/harmonies belong to what Keys. But, they are not the end. As we both know there are many things beyond the basic Chord Scales that can happen when playing Functional music.

 

Diatonic Theory and Chord Scale theory is not the greatest explanation of Modal Music though. Sure, the foundation needs to be there but there's a number of other "mindsets" that need to be there. Most books don;t even deal with it but still use the word "Modes" in their titles.

 

All of that is why I explain it like I do. Most people really don't even have a good handle on functional theory let alone trying to step into Modal theory.

 

Separating the two, then rejoining them (which I have explained yet), is key to people realizing what they have under their fingers when they learn these patterns.

[gennation]

So - is it a logical next step to say: " If you are a beginning guitarist figuring out theory to help you with improvisation, FORGET MODES. Learn the friggin scales. Then learn chord theory, and how to adjust scales you play to match the chords. By the time you have that, you will have a good basis for varied improvisation, and you possibly have the theory basis to move on to modes. " Is that a fair statement? GaJ

 

 

Yes.

 

Then once you understand all of that, do the same except with Modal Music.

[Jed]

... or does this fact mean that as a guitarist out there trying to work with people who are talking about modes when they mean scales imply that I have to come to grips with what _those_ people are talking about, even if it's not true "modal setting" ? In which case WTF are they talking about, exactly?

If when someone mentions a mode - you assume they are talking about the notes of a scale as they would be applied over the corresponding chord function (the sound of the chord) then you will be good to go 99.94% of the time (regardless of whether the setting is functional or modal).

hear Ionian - think of the sound of the Imaj7 (9th, (11th = avoid), 13th)
hear Dorian - think of the sound of the IImin7 (9th, 11th, (13th = carefull))
hear Phygian - think of the sound of the IIImin7 ((b9th = avoid), 11th, (b13th = avoid))
hear Lydian - think of the sound of the IVmaj7 (9th, (#11th = carefull), 13th)
hear Mixolydian - think of the sound of the Vdom7 (9th, (11th = avoid), 13th)
hear Aeolian - think of the sound of the VImin7 (9th, 11th, (b13th = avoid))
hear Locrian - think of the sound of the VIImin7b5 ((b9th = avoid), 11th, b13th) - or think of the Vdom9 from the 3rd.

cheers,

[Jed]

I appreciate all of this and understand exactly where you're coming from. Chord scales are great for not only building chords but also showing what chords/harmonies belong to what Keys. But, they are not the end. As we both know there are many things beyond the basic Chord Scales that can happen when playing Functional music. Diatonic Theory and Chord Scale theory is not the greatest explanation of Modal Music though. Sure, the foundation needs to be there but there's a number of other "mindsets" that need to be there. Most books don;t even deal with it but still use the word "Modes" in their titles. All of that is why I explain it like I do. Most people really don't even have a good handle on functional theory let alone trying to step into Modal theory. Separating the two, then rejoining them (which I have explained yet), is key to people realizing what they have under their fingers when they learn these patterns.

 

 

I know you understand the disctinction, I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I suspect we both wish the concept of modes could be striken from the public's mind until after they've come to grips with functional harmony. But someone has planted the seed of modes into the new guitarist's heads and now there are only so many people around to deal with all the weeds.

 

If people understood functional harmony first, well and in all keys, then learning about modes and modal music would be a simple thing. From my perspective it boils down to the fact that that are lots of people that want to BE a great guitarist but few who are willing to put in the work and time required to BECOME a great guitarist.

 

cheers,

[gennation]

I know you understand the disctinction, I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I suspect we both wish the concept of modes could be striken from the public's mind until after they've come to grips with functional harmony. But someone has planted the seed of modes into the new guitarist's heads and now there are only so many people around to deal with all the weeds. If people understood functional harmony first, well and in all keys, then learning about modes and modal music would be a simple thing. From my perspective it boils down to the fact that that are lots of people that want to BE a great guitarist but few who are willing to put in the work and time required to BECOME a great guitarist. cheers,

 

 

 

Ditto to all of that.

[jonfinn]

Ditto to all of that.

 

 

Hi guys,

 

I've been reading through all these posts and thinking about how this thread mirrors so many conversations I've had. You're exactly right that the disconnect between "fingering" and "sound of mode" is a lack of experience.

 

Further, the internet makes so much information so readily available that many of us find ourselves fielding those same "what's the secret/shortcut" questions over and over, only to get frustrated.

 

I think what I've decided is that confusion is ultimately a good thing. Someone who's confused over an issue will try to solve it. If they don't care a lot about it, they won't work very hard. Those who truly care will do whatever it takes to get the info they need.

 

I'd like to offer this perspective on modes.

 

Modes can be thought of in at least three ways:

 

1) A mode is a major scale starting on different degrees (ex: D Phrygian is Bb major starting from it's 3rd degree).

 

2) A Mode is a major scale with altered notes (ex: D Phrygian is a D major scale with b2,b3,b6 and b7)

 

3) A mode is a pentatonic scale with two notes added (ex: D Phrygian is D minor pentatonic with Eb and Bb added)

 

What makes something modal is when a group of notes that could be called one scale (like the notes from a Bb Major scale) sound as though another note is "strongest"

 

I could go on and on, but I kinda feel like you guys have explained a lot of it already!

 

Great read thanks!

 

Jon

[Virgman]

 

What makes something modal is when a group of notes that could be called one scale (like the notes from a Bb Major scale) sound as though another note is "strongest"

 

 

Good.

[Virgman]

I've read till I'm blue in the face on modes, and I do understand how they are constructed, what they are composed of. What I don't yet understand is what guitarists use them to help them with.

 

Interesting and thought provoking explanations given by previous posters! Modes are a confusing topic.

 

To get back to the original question a bit...

 

Using key of C progressions for example.

 

Am - F - G try A-Aeolian or Am pentatonic

 

C - F - G try C-Ionian or Am pentatonic (Am and C are substitutes, the I and vi chords)

 

Dm- F - G try D-Dorian or Dm pentatonic

 

etc....

 

I used a mode based on the first chord in the progression.

 

How about a blues progression -

 

C7 - F7 - G7 try C-Mixolydian over the C7, F-Mixo over the F7, G-Mixo over the G7. Or play C-Blues over the whole thing.

 

It's a choice for you and your ears.

 

[GreenAsJade]

 

If people understood functional harmony first, well and in all keys, then learning about modes and modal music would be a simple thing. From my perspective it boils down to the fact that that are lots of people that want to BE a great guitarist but few who are willing to put in the work and time required to BECOME a great guitarist.

 

 

Here's another mystery for me.

 

This is read *head* stuff. Reading. Terminolgy. Remembering.

 

Some of the great guitarists, from eveything they portray, are not "head" people. At least, that's the image. It's hard to picture them in front of a book learning all this stuff. They are the people who drop out of school because they hate head stuff, right?

 

Now I _know_ that "it's all about the sound, reading won't teach it to you", but at the same time, there is a *lot* of theory behind what you are all talking about ... how does that get into a person's head other than by reading?

 

I have to wonder whether the really great guitarists are prodigies (by which I mean, it just comes to them, not theoretically but from brain to fingers), and all this theory is for the rest of us to try to unlock what they are doing...

 

GaJ

[Virgman]

Here's another mystery for me. This is read *head* stuff. Reading. Terminolgy. Remembering. Some of the great guitarists, from eveything they portray, are not "head" people. At least, that's the image. It's hard to picture them in front of a book learning all this stuff. They are the people who drop out of school because they hate head stuff, right? Now I _know_ that "it's all about the sound, reading won't teach it to you", but at the same time, there is a *lot* of theory behind what you are all talking about ... how does that get into a person's head other than by reading? I have to wonder whether the really great guitarists are prodigies (by which I mean, it just comes to them, not theoretically but from brain to fingers), and all this theory is for the rest of us to try to unlock what they are doing... GaJ

 

 

Give us a specific example of someone.

[astring]

I was writing a long winded reply, but will go with this shorter one... Forget all the Diatonic stuff/connections... JUST play one chord, and play one scale over it. Modes are played over "I chords", you don't really need to get much more detailed than that. What you have learned so far is "Diatonic Theory" NOT Modal Music. Have you read any book on Modal Music??? Chances are you haven't, but you've read MANY on Diatonic Theory. This is why you are still confused about Modes no matter how much you learn. Modal Music is the key to using Modes. Modes are special, and their use is special, they are NOT every where in every Music, but used 100% in Modal Music. Modal Music can be it's own entity or it can be used within other musical entities. You use Modes when things AREN'T Diatonic. The less Diatonic something is, the MORE Modal it is. The more Diatonic something is, the LESS Modal it is. ||: C | Am | F | G :|| This is not Modal, it's Diatonic (or also known as Functional). That's a I-vi-IV-V progression in C Major. This is probably along the lines of some of the stuff you've read , and also that you are confused about when it comes to Modes. Don't think about Modes here, just play in Key and follow the chords (or chord tones if you will). ||: D | D | Dm | Dm :|| This is Modal, not Diatonic/Function. This is a I-Im Modal progression, and it's not IN anything or any Key, it's Modal. With the first one, the scale stays the same for each chord (the C Major scale). For the second one the scale HAS TO change (D Ionian->D Dorian). In the first one all the chords are from the same entity, or scale. In the second, each of those chords are their own entity, or get their own scale. This is common concept in Modal music. Let's embellish those chords a bit more: ||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Dm7 | Dm7 :|| Now use D Ionian for Dmaj9 and use D Dorian for Dm7... BANG!!!! THAT'S Modal. (I'm sure I will elaborate more, soon)

As I have previously stated you are a major help to everyone here. Thanks again!!!

[blumonk]

the more complicated you can make modes sound, the more time you can speed on lessons about modes, the more money you can make.

in reality, modes could be thoroughly explained in 1 30min lesson. but our friendly guitar teachers can make more money by making it sound more complicated than it really is and dedicating 10+ lessons to it.

[gennation]

in reality, modes could be thoroughly explained in 1 30min lesson. but our friendly guitar teachers can make more money by making it sound more complicated than it really is and dedicating 10+ lessons to it.

No, actually if you are going to study Modes/Modal Music, you need to STUDY Modes/Modal Music.

This half hour lesson were someone writes a pattern and gives it a name is where the major disconnect on confusion stems.

Guitarist learn patterns, then when the "pattern" doesn't make music for them, they learn more patterns. They see ALL these patterns and these cryptic name and think "this must be what everyones playing, that I can't seem to put my fingers on", so they learn these patterns. But, they learn them with the names. Then all of a sudden, THESE patterns don't make music for them.

You can wank on the Blues stuff forever, because it's a "pattern" that works FOR YOU. These others scales...YOU need to make them work.

Once you get past the Blues stuff, there is no other "magic pattern", it's all up to you from that point on.

[blumonk]

No, actually if you are going to study Modes/Modal Music, you need to STUDY Modes/Modal Music. This half hour lesson were someone writes a pattern and gives it a name is where the major disconnect on confusion stems. Guitarist learn patterns, then when the "pattern" doesn't make music for them, they learn more patterns. They see ALL these patterns and these cryptic name and think "this must be what everyones playing, that I can't seem to put my fingers on", so they learn these patterns. But, they learn them with the names. Then all of a sudden, THESE patterns don't make music for them. You can wank on the Blues stuff forever, because it's a "pattern" that works FOR YOU. These others scales...YOU need to make them work. Once you get past the Blues stuff, there is no other "magic pattern", it's all up to you from that point on.

No, actually it can be explained and demonstrated without writing down a bunch of patterns. The only pattern you need is the major scale. If you want to study modes/modal music, yes you have to study. But to understand modes and learn how to use them effectively, it can be taught rather quickly.

[Virgman]

There is no doubt that the discussion of modes brings out the best in us.

Is there any cold beer left?