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Modes (again, I know): question on use, not theory


GreenAsJade

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Posted

I've read till I'm blue in the face on modes, and I do understand how they are constructed, what they are composed of.

 

What I don't yet understand is what guitarists use them to help them with.

 

Are you using them to choose from _different_ notes to play over a song in a given key (a dramatically different sound), or are you using them to chose the same set of notes, just in a different place/sequence on the fretboard (a subtly different sound).

 

To explain my question better: suppose you have a song in G.

 

When you play the G major scale you get one set of notes: GABCDEF#. You could chose to play "Dorian". Does this mean that you're going to play A Dorian? You'll be playing a different "shape" of "dots" on the fretboard, but it's the same notes: ABCDEF#G. It doesn't sound that different. Is this really the effect you're after when you say "I'm going to use Dorian"? Doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

 

Or when you think "OK, here comes Dorian" do you play *G* Dorian? In which case suddenly you're playing GABbCDEF ... Bb and F instead of B and F#. Now _that_ sounds really different. You've got notes in your scale that are dissonant against notes in the underlying chords etc. Is this the effect your're after when you say "I'm going to use the Dorian against this tune?".

 

Hope this question makes sense.

 

Thanks,

 

GaJ

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Posted

Often times people use the modes as chord scales, it's a way to think in terms of chords that gives you access to more than just the chord tones.

So that in the key of G major:

where they see a G major chord - they would think in terms of G Ionian
where they see an A minor chord - they would think in terms of A Dorian
where they see a B minor chord - they would think in terms of B Phrygian
where they see a C major chord - they would think in terms of C Lydian
where they see a D major chord - they would think in terms of D Mixolydian
where they see an E minor chord - they would think in terms of E Aeolian
where they see a F# diminished chord - they would think in terms of F# Locrian or D Mixolydian

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Posted

This is "case 1" in my example.

 

 

That strikes me as really wierd. Going to all the trouble of learning a whole new vocabulary just to access the same notes in the scale.

 

IE when you see an Aminor chord and the tune is in G major, you choose A Dorian, which gives you all the same notes to play as G major, just starting on the A instead of the G. IE you will play ABCDEF#G instead of GABCDEF#. But it will sound basically the same: it is the same notes that you're using to improvise with.

 

Is this "all there is"?

 

(Thanks for taking the trouble to respond! I know modes have been done to death ... and yet still I haven't got it :freak: )

 

GaJ

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Posted

Think of it as playing around the notes of the chord in the progression.

 

Relate the mode to the chord.

 

When you solo by ear it's something you do naturally.

 

Don't get too tied up with it.

 

You can play all the modes from any position on the fretboard.

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Posted

GaJ,

A lot of guitarist try to look at it from various perspectives...whether you just look at G Major in your example and play A Dorian or for A Dorian playing an altered E Natural Minor Scale.

The probelm is that you asking for a contextual and/or visual roadmap to an aural process. A lot of guitarists do it, which is why most can't play in different modes.

Here's the bottom line: There are 12 tones in western music. Each one has a particular sound when played against the Tonic of the key you're playing in. Learn the individual sounds, then learn how they work together. From that point, you choose the notes you want based on their SOUND, not anything contextual, visual, etc.

Start with the two forms of Pentatonic:

Major: 1 2 3 5 6 (scale degrees)
Minor: 1 3b 4 5 7b

For the Major pentatonic, the 4th and 7th scale degrees are missing. The three "Major" variations; Lydian, Major, and Mixolydian differ due to variations of these two scale degrees:

Lydian: 1 2 3 4# 5 6 7
Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b

For the Minor pentatonic, the 2nd and 6th scale degrees are missing. The three "Minor" variations; Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian differ due to variations of these two scale degrees:

Dorian: 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7 b
Aeolian: 1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7b
Phrygian: 1 2b 3b 4 5 6b 7b

To look at them all in "descending order:

Lydian: 1 2 3 4# 5 6 7
Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b
Dorian: 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7 b
Aeolian: 1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7b
Phrygian: 1 2b 3b 4 5 6b 7b

You can then add the Minor variations of Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor, etc.

Once you nail all this, you learn when you can borrow from one another freely to grow from "scale based" thinking to music that is free.

Note: The Major scale is the reference point, so 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 without any sharps or flats is a Major scale. Lydian has a sharp fourth compared to the Major scale, hence the 1 2 3 4# 5 6 7, etc, etc.

Make sense?

Until you "think aurally" you won't get it.

Wes

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Posted

I was writing a long winded reply, but will go with this shorter one...

 

Forget all the Diatonic stuff/connections...

 

JUST play one chord, and play one scale over it. Modes are played over "I chords", you don't really need to get much more detailed than that.

 

What you have learned so far is "Diatonic Theory" NOT Modal Music. Have you read any book on Modal Music??? Chances are you haven't, but you've read MANY on Diatonic Theory. This is why you are still confused about Modes no matter how much you learn.

 

Modal Music is the key to using Modes. Modes are special, and their use is special, they are NOT every where in every Music, but used 100% in Modal Music.

 

Modal Music can be it's own entity or it can be used within other musical entities. You use Modes when things AREN'T Diatonic. The less Diatonic something is, the MORE Modal it is. The more Diatonic something is, the LESS Modal it is.

 

||: C | Am | F | G :|| This is not Modal, it's Diatonic (or also known as Functional). That's a I-vi-IV-V progression in C Major. This is probably along the lines of some of the stuff you've read , and also that you are confused about when it comes to Modes. Don't think about Modes here, just play in Key and follow the chords (or chord tones if you will).

 

||: D | D | Dm | Dm :|| This is Modal, not Diatonic/Function. This is a I-Im Modal progression, and it's not IN anything or any Key, it's Modal.

 

With the first one, the scale stays the same for each chord (the C Major scale). For the second one the scale HAS TO change (D Ionian->D Dorian).

 

In the first one all the chords are from the same entity, or scale. In the second, each of those chords are their own entity, or get their own scale. This is common concept in Modal music.

 

Let's embellish those chords a bit more:

 

||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Dm7 | Dm7 :||

 

Now use D Ionian for Dmaj9 and use D Dorian for Dm7...

 

BANG!!!! THAT'S Modal.

 

(I'm sure I will elaborate more, soon)

Posted

I was writing a long winded reply, but will go with this shorter one...


Forget all the Diatonic stuff/connections...


JUST play one chord, and play one scale over it. Modes are played over "I chords", you don't really need to get much more detailed than that.


What you have learned so far is "Diatonic Theory" NOT Modal Music. Have you read any book on Modal Music??? Chances are you haven't, but you've read MANY on Diatonic Theory. This is why you are still confused about Modes no matter how much you learn.


Modal Music is the key to using Modes. Modes are special, and their use is special, they are NOT every where in every Music, but used 100% in Modal Music.


Modal Music can be it's own entity or it can be used within other musical entities. You use Modes when things AREN'T Diatonic. The less Diatonic something is, the MORE Modal it is. The more Diatonic something is, the LESS Modal it is.


||: C | Am | F | G :|| This is not Modal, it's Diatonic (or also known as Functional). That's a I-vi-IV-V progression in C Major. This is probably along the lines of some of the stuff you've read , and also that you are confused about when it comes to Modes. Don't think about Modes here, just play in Key and follow the chords (or chord tones if you will).


||: D | D | Dm | Dm :|| This is Modal, not Diatonic/Function. This is a I-Im Modal progression, and it's not IN anything or any Key, it's Modal.


With the first one, the scale stays the same for each chord (the C Major scale). For the second one the scale HAS TO change (D Ionian->D Dorian).


In the first one all the chords are from the same entity, or scale. In the second, each of those chords are their own entity, or get their own scale. This is common concept in Modal music.


Let's embellish those chords a bit more:


||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Dm7 | Dm7 :||


Now use D Ionian for Dmaj9 and use D Dorian for Dm7...


BANG!!!! THAT'S Modal.


(I'm sure I will elaborate more, soon)

 

I think that this is probably the best explanation that I've heard in a while on mode usage...:thu:

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Posted

Thanks so much for these replies. It will take me a while to absorb them. I think that gennation's reply might hold the key to my question, but I want to ask wes about his reply first.

 

Wes - I feel like I understand everything you've written, but it hasn't answered my question, so I must be missing your point.

 

I can relate to "you choose the notes that you want based on how they sound". I would assert, though, that if you knew how every note on the fretboard was going to sound against every chord sequence you encounter, you would not need tools like scales or modes, you'd just play the sound you want. Probably the virtuoso guitarists are doing that.

 

After you said "choose the notes based on the way they sound", the only other point I can glean from your description is how the modes are _constructed_ (which I already know) not how they are _used_. When do you choose to use the darn things?

 

I see scales and modes as tools to help you find the right sounds when you don't know exactly what they are. So for example, I know that if I choose notes from the major scale of the tonic when the tune is being played in major, they will sound OK. Then I just have to choose a sequence of notes from those 7, not from all 12. Much simpler, no risk of a really wrong sound.

 

I'm thinking that modes _should_ be a similar tool. If feel like if only I understood them, that they would give me more variety in choices of sound: at the moment I only have two (major sound and minor pentatonic sound).

 

What I don't know is how to apply the tool ... specifically, I don't know how "real musicians" apply it. I can see that there are two ways, which I have tried to describe. One way is:

 

"Use the mode to choose the same 7 note from the scale of the tonic: the mode will give them to you in a different order". This is what happens when you choose to play A Dorin over an Am chord in a song in G. You play notes from G maj scale. I'm not impressed by that tool's addition to my vocabulary :)

 

The other way would be to say: "I know that Locrian sounds off, I want off sounds, so I will play G Locrain against this song that's in G major". The problem is that I've tried that and it sounds so off that I can't believe it's what is intended :)

 

I can see that gennation is leading me in a different direction: that maybe I have to understand whether the underlying chord sequence supports modal thinking, and only use modes then. I need to read his post a few times and absorb that, but I would be really interested in wes your take on this.

 

Thanks again!

 

GaJ

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Posted

I can see that gennation is leading me in a different direction: that maybe I have to understand whether the underlying chord sequence supports modal thinking, and only use modes then. I need to read his post a few times and absorb that, but I would be really interested in wes your take on this.

I understand what Gennation is saying, but that description better describes pitch axis theory than modes. Modal music is simply using a combination of musical spices to achieve a certain sound. Whether it's chord sequences, individual chords, scales, etc, it's all in knowing AURALLY how a combination of certain tones sounds and what you can do with those sounds.

 

Make sense?

Wes

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Posted

one quick question... the way you guys are talking about modes makes it seem as though even if you read every single book about them, you will never understand them until you grab a guitar because it is about the different SOUND it creates, which isn't something you can understand on paper. Is this the way it is?

thanks in advance, i've been confused about modes forever

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Posted
one quick question... the way you guys are talking about modes makes it seem as though even if you read every single book about them, you will never understand them until you grab a guitar because it is about the different SOUND it creates, which isn't something you can understand on paper. Is this the way it is?


thanks in advance, i've been confused about modes forever

A book won't teach you the sound of modes...you have to put the time in with the instrument.

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The other way would be to say: "I know that Locrian sounds off, I want off sounds, so I will play G Locrain against this song that's in G major". The problem is that I've tried that and it sounds so off that I can't believe it's what is intended
:)

 

This is a HUGE misconception about Modes, and it comes from not learning Modal Music.

 

I can see that gennation is leading me in a different direction: that maybe I have to understand whether the underlying chord sequence supports modal thinking, and only use modes then.

 

You might change the wording slightly and you got it...

 

"that maybe I have to understand IF the underlying chord sequence supports modal thinking, and only use modes then."

 

That "if" is huge in determining between Modal and Functional.

 

Wes, isn't completely right about the Pitch Axis stuff, nor is he completely wrong...granted it's a D to Dm, but this is just a VERY basis example of Modes and I present it to understand Modal Music not Pitch Axis. But I can see where he might say that based on this particular example, but I do not present it as anything related to Pitch Axis, but more of a Modal progression.

 

One thing to do is to not only learn about Modal Music, but start listening to it. This is key because you'll start understand why something like So What it considered Modal and something like Satin Doll isn't. And, you'll also find where Modes might be used over one or two chords in song/progression where 60% of it might all be Functional, IOW all the chords might belong to a Key, and it might even move from Key to Key, but there's this one chord, or two, that do not fit a Key but lean more to a Modal application.

 

I'll try and write some details about a few Modal progression and some about ones that "drop in" a Modal chord here and there.

 

Question for you...

 

Do you understand Functional Theory, like V-I, ii-V-I and all the ways to handle those? Actually just how to handle a V7 chord when it moves to a Imaj7 or a Im7? Because that is a HUGE aspect in determining IF Modes should even be considered.

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Posted

 

one quick question... the way you guys are talking about modes makes it seem as though even if you read every single book about them, you will never understand them until you grab a guitar because it is about the different SOUND it creates, which isn't something you can understand on paper. Is this the way it is?


thanks in advance, i've been confused about modes forever

 

 

One major problem is, EVERY book teaches Diatonic Theory and slaps the word "Modes" in the title. Diatonic Theory is huge, don't get me wrong, and deserves your attention to it for the rest of your playing live...but, so does Modal Music.

 

Problem is every book uses the word and then goes on to teach a completely different aspect of music.

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Posted

||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Dm7 | Dm7 :||


Now use D Ionian for Dmaj9 and use D Dorian for Dm7...

 

 

Nothing wrong with that, but I'd personally recommend that someone learn to use a single mode before integrating a multi-modal approach. Pitch Axis is inherently multi modal where "modal" music typically adheres to one mode. Jazz is often multi-modal, but in the context of "modal music", typically one is not referring to a specific genre of music.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but for the folks that are confused by modes, I think they need to learn to walk with the first approach I detailed with the Major and Minor Pentatonics, leading to modes, leading to multi-modal approaches, leading to music free from scales.

 

Wes

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Posted

I agree with everything you're saying and would've covered it if I would've posted that long post I was going to start out with.

 

But, through a study of Modal Music you will find three basic examples:

 

Pure Modal - Compositional piece using ONE Mode played over ONE Drone, not even a chord but a Drone, and never varying from the Mode. Similar to Tradition music from India, parts of Africa, and different parts of the East.

 

Jazz Modal - Compositions utilizing a small groups of disparate chords played for long times, each chord get it's own scale and you use "connector" notes between the scales to make the movement and to create anticipation. Like Niama, So What, Blue in Green, Neferitti, etc...Jazz Modal tunes.

 

Modern Modal - Still using disparate chords but played at a much faster pace, and using the "connector" notes much faster tying the chord movements together. Many times there is less anticipation in this music, because the chords go by faster so there is no "waiting". Players who use this: Stanley Clarke, Chick Corea, John Mclaughlin, etc...etc...

 

There are other aspects of music where Modes fall into place, but many people never grasp when because they never learn any basics of Modal Music, they are too concerned about STICKING Modes in music where you don't really need to bother with, and in turn doesn't make sense to the person...and that's how the confusion continues.

 

Most of the time Modes aren't even concidered for solo'ing, they are considered when the COMPOSITION called for them.

 

That's why playing one chord and one scale "to get the sound" isn't really worth a whole lot, because the sound DOESN'T matter unless it's ALREADY in the song. You need to the change of chords to pull out the strength of the Mode and give it purpose in the first place.

 

Most people confused by Modes have made a backing of one chord and played one Mode and found it doesn't matter which Minor or Major Mode they use...because it's one static chord there's nothing describing WHY to use a Mode in the first place. Now just throw ONE chord change in there...and then there will only be ONE possible Mode choice. This is were Modes rely on the composition as opposed to playing ANY old Minor Mode over a m7 chord, except for memorization it's practically useless...and leads to more confusion.

 

And, these people who have tried this with one chord, "get the sound" are still confused when to use Modes in a tune...because one, they don't understand composition, and two, they don't understand Modal Music.

 

You are not going to learn anything but a memorization of patterns by playing one scale over one chord to "get the sound" of the Mode...you have to understand WHEN it's use in music.

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Posted

I have to disagree on pure modal music. A modal chord progression with corresponding mode is really no different than any other kind of music. It certainly doesn't require a drone. Keep in mind that a major key piece is also modal (Ionian) as it a simple song in minor (Aeolian). Eleanor Rigby is simply a Dorian song and Norwegian Wood is Mixolydian, it all depends on the combination of notes used.

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This is "case 1" in my example.


That strikes me as really wierd. Going to all the trouble of learning a whole new vocabulary just to access the same notes in the scale.


GaJ

 

 

The notes are the same, but the chord tones are different. Most guitarists will emphasize the chord tones in their soloing.

 

For example, lets say you have a I, IV, V chord progression in the key of G.

 

You would play G Ionian over the G chord, C Lydian over the C chord, and D Mixolydian over the D chord.

 

In each case, the chord tones of the mode are 1, 3, and 5.

 

If you just keep thinking about the G major scale, then the chord tones over the C chord would 4, 6, and 8. The chord tones over the D chord would be 5, 7, and 9. So it's actually more confusing to keep thinking about the G Major scale.

 

 

Also, this is different application than what "gennation" is writing about.

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Posted

Here's another simple two chord progression that NEEDS Modes...or NEEDS you to change the scale...

 

in 3/4 time

 

||: Em | Em | Em | Em | C9 | C9 | C9 | C9 :||

 

For Em use E Aeolian. For C9 use C Mixolydian. Of course you can use any Pentatonic from either scale too.

 

You will find that, because of understanding Functional Music that you could also use the C Lydian Dominant scale over C9. You can use C Mixo and C Lyd Dom mixed together too to utilize the 4 and #4.

 

But when you change chords, it's the changing of chords that DICTATES the best Modes.

 

And, look at the notes of each of the scales...

 

E Aeolian - E F# G A B C D E

C Mixo - C D E F G A Bb C

 

The C, D, E, G, and A are common between the two scales. It's the F-F# and B-Bb that are different. These two differences is where the composition lies.

 

Try this, every time you come to the next chord, start with the notes that are different between the two (F-F# and B-Bb). This will show you how to "lean" on the Mode. Use those notes as almost resolve notes for the last scale...Modally DO NOT worry about the F being the 4/11 of C9, because this in Modal, that note plays a BIG role in the REASON you play C Mixolydian.

 

Don't be afraid to lean on the Mode when the chord charges...the MUSIC NEEDS it.

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Posted

 

I have to disagree on pure modal music. A modal chord progression with corresponding mode is really no different than any other kind of music. It certainly doesn't require a drone. Keep in mind that a major key piece is also modal (Ionian) as it a simple song in minor (Aeolian). Eleanor Rigby is simply a Dorian song and Norwegian Wood is Mixolydian, it all depends on the combination of notes used.

 

 

 

Don't confuse Major and Minor Keys with Modes, that's a mistake that leads to more confusion.

 

In my first example I used D Ionian because there's no other chords telling me it's D Major. And, in my last example I used E Aeolian because there were no other chords telling me it was E Natural Minor.

 

Again, it's when to "think" Modes and when not.

 

Norwegian Wood does use Mixolydian in the melody, again by composition.

 

Eleanor Rigby, does use Dorian in the verse melody, again by composition. Even though the C note doesn't exist (if using E Dorian). That change to C is exactly what I'm talking about, E Dorian is stronger because of the change...not that fact that it just stays in Dorian.

 

Eleanor's intro (Ah, look at all the lonely people) is E Minor, not Dorian. Again, you have the contrast.

 

These are both good examples that people should use...these are songs, NOT solo's. When you hear the song it EASY to pick out the Mode...again...by the changes.

 

It all about composition (not Pure Modal), not just playing one chord to "get the sound". The change needs to be there to create the music.

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Posted


Also, this is different application than what "gennation" is writing about.

 

 

Yes, you are explaining the basics of functional theory, when using I-IV-V as an example. I believe I did mention "chords tones" earlier when I showed the functional I-vi-ii-V.

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Posted

All this is fantastic information - thanks again for taking the time, I'm learning more with each post.

 

But there's still a really basic question that I haven't managed to convey yet. It's about the _sound_.

 

Here's another try:

 

Is the sound of notes from B Locrian scale against a C Major chord (or a Bm chord) a "Locrian" sound?

 

I _think_ the answer is "no". The reason I think that is because in that example you are just playing the same notes as if you were playing from C Ionian scale. If they are the same notes being played, how can it "sound" different"?

 

So this leads me to think that things are Locrian when you're playing _C_ Locrian against appropriate chords ... would that be against Bm7b5 or somefink?

 

... and _this_ means that you wouldn't play "Locrian" _unless_ there are chords under there with all those strange flats etc in them?

 

If I'm right, then it means that guitarists who play "the dots" from B Locrian against a normal C progression aren't using a mode at all, they're just using a different selection of fingering for the C major scale... is that right?

 

GaJ

 

(wes, I understand that you have to know what notes make sense as well as knowing what scale to choose from. It's no good just randomly selecting notes from the 7 major scale notes, just like its no good selecting words randomly from a dictionary. BUT it is good knowing that narrowing down the choice in one way or another will give a particular effect... that's what I'm trying to come to grips with).

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Posted

Don't confuse Major and Minor Keys with Modes, that's a mistake that leads to more confusion.

I haven't...Major and Ionian are the same. Aeolian and minor are the same. I think you're limiting the application of modes, and that's a mistake. All are just different combinations of notes, no more, no less. Looking at it from this viewpoint makes it easy to understand and more usable.

 

If you're referring to Major and Minor in the context of parent key families; ie Major family of Lydian, Ionian, Major, Harmonic Major, etc, then fine, but again, I'm referring to singular mode tonal centers for the sake of the discussion and as a beginning step to using modes.

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Posted

"If I'm right, then it means that guitarists who play "the dots" from B Locrian against a normal C progression aren't using a mode at all, they're just using a different selection of fingering for the C major scale... is that right?"

 

Exactly. Do not confuse scale pattern names and fingerings for actual Modes terminology.

 

IOW, in you first post you mentioned playing A Dorian for G Major. This is wrong terminology.

 

If G is the chord and you play "A Dorian" pattern, "Dorian" nothing to do with it. If you play a straight G Major scale starting on A you are playing ABC D E F#GA.

 

Against a G chord this would be the 2 M3 4 5 6 M7 R 2 Intervals/harmonies. But, in A Dorian it would be the R 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 R.

 

If G is the chord, everything you play harmonizes against the G chord, so "A Dorian" shouldn't be used.

 

Somewhere along the lines some started showing guitarist these Mode names over "patterns" while they were actually showing how to play a Major scale up the fretboard. That's where the Name->Pattern issue starts for most guitarists. A pattern can be all the Modes, but it's the application of what your playing that would determine the Mode name, not the pattern.

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Posted
(wes, I understand that you have to know what notes make sense as well as knowing what scale to choose from. It's no good just randomly selecting notes from the 7 major scale notes, just like its no good selecting words randomly from a dictionary. BUT it is good knowing that narrowing down the choice in one way or another will give a particular effect... that's what I'm trying to come to grips with).

Right....now the task is to spend the time learning the sounds of each of the 12 notes of the chromatic scale against the tonal center and what each one suggests to you. At the same time, start learning the different scales by singing them as you play, and also learning some modal chord progressions and learn to hear the key notes that identify a particular mode.

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