Members Terje Posted December 4, 2007 Members Posted December 4, 2007 A piano player that knows a tune usually knows the melody, the chords, maybe a bass line and perhaps also some harmonized version of the melody. Most people who play other instruments don't know the tunes that thoroughly. Most often that shows
Members blumonk Posted December 4, 2007 Members Posted December 4, 2007 jazz guitarists are really just more economical pianists.
Members pewing33ny Posted December 4, 2007 Members Posted December 4, 2007 A piano player that knows a tune usually knows the melody, the chords, maybe a bass line and perhaps also some harmonized version of the melody. Most people who play other instruments don't know the tunes that thoroughly. Most often that shows what kind of people are you referring to?
Members Terje Posted December 5, 2007 Author Members Posted December 5, 2007 I guess I'm refering to horn players more than guitarists. Someone like me ro perhaps a violinist, won't necessarily know anything but the melody of a tune. Guitarists know the chords but not always a bass line.
Moderators Jed Posted December 5, 2007 Moderators Posted December 5, 2007 I guess I'm refering to horn players more than guitarists. Someone like me ro perhaps a violinist, won't necessarily know anything but the melody of a tune. Guitarists know the chords but not always a bass line. It sounds like you're projecting here again Terge. Knowing a song means knowing the Melody and the Harmony. By default the harmony includes the bass part. That doesn't mean that everyone learns every song well enough to be able to play any of these parts with equal ease. And it doesn't mean that a guitarist who is usuaslly pre-occupied with just playing the rhythm guitar part knows anything about playing a bass line. Pianist are used to playing 6 or more voices at a time (each with it's own rhythm and articulation). They have a lot more flexibility to play additional parts than a guitar can. A guitar would often have to play the same song 3 times to do justice to the melody, harmony and bass line. (not counting chord melody virtuoso's here) Memorizing oen part of a song (the chord progression / harmony) in terms of memorizing one voicing per chord is NOT my definition of learning a song.
Members jonfinn Posted December 5, 2007 Members Posted December 5, 2007 What you described: -Learn the melody -learn the chords -learn about the tune, not just "your part" I think that describes an ideal I strive for when learning tunes myself, or teaching them to others. I also think it depends on context too. Many classical musicians don't care at all about the theoretical aspects of the music they play. Further, they only learn their parts and make little if any effort to put their own style in to what they play. Once while doing a gig with Boston Symphony Orchestra, one of the french horn players turned to me and said, "you played that part differently tonight than you did last night." "yes. I did." "did they give you different music to play?" "No. I was reading the same part. But I interpreted it differently tonight." "Oh. What you played last night sounded good. Why not just play that again?" "I dunno. As a guitarist, you improvise a lot. I kinda don't remember what I did last night." "Oh. What you played tonight sounded good too. How do you do that? I didn't know that was possible." A guitar functions differently in an orchestra than a french horn would. Playing french horn usually means playing with four or five other players, and blending pre-written parts. There's no possibility or opportunity to improvise. So they focus on precision. A great symphonic french horn section is quite a sound! Just listen to any John Williams movie score and feel your hair tingle, that's the horns! My point is simple: There are many paths to Rome!
Members gearo999 Posted December 5, 2007 Members Posted December 5, 2007 Just take time and immerse yourself into the song and you will know it all.
Members SeattleRuss Posted December 5, 2007 Members Posted December 5, 2007 Terje wrote: I guess I'm refering to horn players more than guitarists... Actually, most horn players who are good players have, at some point, gotten at least competent on paino / keyboard. Since their chosen instrument is only capable (usually) of playing one note at a time, they pretty much have to in order to help them get comfortable with chords. When Miles first arrived in NYC, Dizzy told him to learn his chords. All those guys spent hours at the piano. I think something that helped me immensely years ago was doing a lot of MIDI sequencing for Top 40 stuff - I had to learn every part and program it. You want to know how to really, really get to hate a song? Sequence it. LOL!
Members SeattleRuss Posted December 5, 2007 Members Posted December 5, 2007 jonfinn wrote:Once while doing a gig with Boston Symphony Orchestra, one of the french horn players turned to me and said, "you played that part differently tonight than you did last night.""yes. I did.""did they give you different music to play?""No. I was reading the same part. But I interpreted it differently tonight.""Oh. What you played last night sounded good. Why not just play that again?""I dunno. As a guitarist, you improvise a lot. I kinda don't remember what I did last night.""Oh. What you played tonight sounded good too. How do you do that? I didn't know that was possible." Wow.... Sounds like that guy needs to get out more! I guess it didn't used to be like that. They say that back in the day, many of the big names in Baroque and Classical could improvise their butts off....
Members The Chosen Few Posted December 5, 2007 Members Posted December 5, 2007 What you described:"yes. I did.""did they give you different music to play?""No. I was reading the same part. But I interpreted it differently tonight.""Oh. What you played last night sounded good. Why not just play that again?""I dunno. As a guitarist, you improvise a lot. I kinda don't remember what I did last night.""Oh. What you played tonight sounded good too. How do you do that? I didn't know that was possible." That is beautiful in so many ways !There is a skill to knowing it well enough to play it the same way again and again. The fact that you couldn't replay it the same way twice is an example of that. Now to be a musician that grows, you must learn both and excelle at both. If you do not know how to improvise, music might feel foreign in some situations. But if you can only improvize and know no reality of a set way you do lack a side of music as well. Hey it's tough being a good musician, no dought !I play piano , guitar, bass and even drums. Each instrument is its own. Just because a pianist can fill 6 spots of a song doesnt mean he knows it better. No offence but having a very formulated keyboard in front of you with percise steps and half steps lets doing that rather easy. If a guitarist filled the rhythm and the bass line with tasteful fingerpicking I find that just as complex as a pianist. I got side tracked... damnit
Moderators Jed Posted December 5, 2007 Moderators Posted December 5, 2007 I think something that helped me immensely years ago was doing a lot of MIDI sequencing for Top 40 stuff - I had to learn every part and program it. You want to know how to really, really get to hate a song? Sequence it. LOL! LOL so true, . . sad but true.
Members Terje Posted December 6, 2007 Author Members Posted December 6, 2007 It sounds like you're projecting here again Terge.Definitely! Knowing a song means knowing the Melody and the Harmony. By default the harmony includes the bass part. Well, to some people "knowing the song" means to just know the chords... but OK, I basically agree with you.
Members radioelectric Posted December 6, 2007 Members Posted December 6, 2007 I always learn the bass part when I learn a new song. Partially because I'm trying to bring my bass playing up on par with my guitar playing and also because I think it's important to know how the two go together.
Members jonfinn Posted December 6, 2007 Members Posted December 6, 2007 jonfinn wrote:Wow....Sounds like that guy needs to get out more!I guess it didn't used to be like that. They say that back in the day, many of the big names in Baroque and Classical could improvise their butts off.... I didn't take his comment in a "wow, you're clueless" way at all. The part I left out is that he's one of the best french horn players on the planet. His sound is utterly pristine, almost surreal. What struck me is that in his pursuit of the perfect execution of the perfect sound, he left behind the creative, re-interpretive process. He's probably more of a technician than artist. And that seems like a common mindset in that world. In a way, it's a generous way to proceed because he completely gives himself over to the music. Anytime I work with them, they seem to appreciate my ability to improvise, but I'm always struck by their precision. It's a whole other level than I'm used to when working with rock or jazz musicians. It's not better, or worse. Its just different.
Moderators Jed Posted December 6, 2007 Moderators Posted December 6, 2007 I didn't take his comment in a "wow, you're clueless" way at all. The part I left out is that he's one of the best french horn players on the planet. His sound is utterly pristine, almost surreal. What struck me is that in his pursuit of the perfect execution of the perfect sound, he left behind the creative, re-interpretive process. He's probably more of a technician than artist. And that seems like a common mindset in that world. In a way, it's a generous way to proceed because he completely gives himself over to the music. I always assumed that "interpretation" was the conductor's responsibility and not really an option for individual players especially for those players that are part of a "section". Certainly soloists and solo instruments (I assume there is only one guitarist?), have a bit more flexibility but I would suspect that for a section player, precision and repeatability of performance is paramount. Like you , I don't see this as a lesser skill - just a completely different focus / priority / function.On the other hand, how would I know? cheers,
Members Terje Posted December 8, 2007 Author Members Posted December 8, 2007 Actually, most horn players who are good players have, at some point, gotten at least competent on paino / keyboard. Since their chosen instrument is only capable (usually) of playing one note at a time, they pretty much have to in order to help them get comfortable with chords. When Miles first arrived in NYC, Dizzy told him to learn his chords. All those guys spent hours at the piano. OK, you're right but maybe this is the point I was trying to make. A keyboard player has all of this under his fingers when he's playing the tune. If you're a horn player, or like me a balalajka player, you need to get this info under your fingers on your chosen instrument in order to know it the way a keyboard player does. I don't know if there are recodings of Dizzy at the piano but Miles certainly was competent enough on piano to have himself recorded playing it. However helpful that was to him when he played his horn he also had to have the smae kind of knowledge under his fingers (and in his lips) on his horn. When a keyboardist has learnt the song he already knows this stuff. A horn player who knows the melody can rightfully be said to know the song but not at the same level as the keyboardist. To some extent it's not even possible.
Members 1001gear Posted December 8, 2007 Members Posted December 8, 2007 Once again, true. I can't imagine there is a substitute for the tactile 'sensibility' of being able to play and manipulate all the parts of a piece as one can with a piano. It involves not just actuating all the notes but the artful balancing and articulation and separating of all the parts in a piano score. Truly awesome stuff if it's done properly. I suppose conductors come to know music far beyond that level but for all the fine crafting they can envision, it's still the orchestra has to come up with the goods. Oh, and on that note, like that Fender Squire the guy was trying to tune, an orchestra player has to nail his function. On cue, every time, all the time. Ok, give or take...
Members SeattleRuss Posted December 8, 2007 Members Posted December 8, 2007 Terje wrote:OK, you're right but maybe this is the point I was trying to make. A keyboard player has all of this under his fingers when he's playing the tune. If you're a horn player, or like me a balalajka player, you need to get this info under your fingers on your chosen instrument in order to know it the way a keyboard player does.I don't know if there are recodings of Dizzy at the piano but Miles certainly was competent enough on piano to have himself recorded playing it. However helpful that was to him when he played his horn he also had to have the smae kind of knowledge under his fingers (and in his lips) on his horn. When a keyboardist has learnt the song he already knows this stuff. A horn player who knows the melody can rightfully be said to know the song but not at the same level as the keyboardist. To some extent it's not even possible. I see what your saying. I guess I'm thinking mostly from a jazz perspective in that, unless a horn player is intimately familiar with the chords to a tune, he couldn't improvise a solo over / through it. I don't know if there are recordings of Dizzy playing piano or not...I know he did show Miles a lot about chords on the piano as did T. Monk. Maybe the recording your refering to is on a date with Charlie Parker, Miles played a bit of piano or maybe is was Miles's own recording date....at any rate, the piano player never showed up, so Miles played. Really, every instrumentalist should at the very least learn to play / visualize all major, minor, augmented and diminished triads on the piano / keyboard. I can't begin to tell you how much it's helped me as a guitar player. The piano is visual in ways that the guitar is not so much, but the guitar is more visual in other ways that the piano is not. In some ways it's nice that guitar players (and balalaika players!) can just move their hand one fret and be playing a Bb chord instead of the A chord they were playing before, without thinking or changing the positioning of their fingers. But in many ways, it''s not so good, because many guitar players can spend a lifetime of playing chords and never know what notes are in them whereas piano players can plainly see at a glance what notes are in the chords they're playing.
Members the-good-way Posted December 9, 2007 Members Posted December 9, 2007 not only visual, but also from a morpholigical/proprioception standpoint (Chopin was big into this, how the hand had to shape differently across the heterogenous keys, etc so the keys "felt" different ) this is how it can be helpful to the non-visual learner such as myself...I often had (and can still) have the problem that many folks are visual learners and will tend toward "here's how you can visualize it" but either (not to imply visual those are the only two modes of learning) can be worked out on keyboards On the root topic...even piano can have limitations compared to, say, organ where one has greater polyphony with notes under hand AND foot this can be helpful if one is working in contrapunctual v homophonic music where "knowing the chords" isn't quite as applicable (fun note on that : that's one place where improvisation is alive and well in older musical styles... they call it "playing extem(poraneously)" - it can be very common when one needs to, for instance, extend a church program)
Members Terje Posted December 9, 2007 Author Members Posted December 9, 2007 In some ways it's nice that guitar players (and balalaika players!) can just move their hand one fret and be playing a Bb chord instead of the A chord they were playing before, without thinking or changing the positioning of their fingers. But in many ways, it''s not so good, because many guitar players can spend a lifetime of playing chords and never know what notes are in them whereas piano players can plainly see at a glance what notes are in the chords they're playing. Yeah, this is what I was getting at. Keyboard players have this right under their fingers when they learn a tune, when they play it. Guitarists may have it too, at least to a degree, depending on how they go about learning songs. Horn players? No, not really. They have to learn the chords, the arpeggios, a bassline, a harmony line, any of that stuff, separately and then incorporate it into their playing. Which is fine but again, the keyboardist has this right under his nose from the very beginning. Some even under their feet...
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