One good argument FOR tabs

[Knottyhed]

No. Because reading music and developing your ear are one and the same.

I was just about to say that!

There's too many false distinctions made, learning to read music isn't just learning to read - it is a course in learning the fretboard, learning music theory, learning timing and yeh improving your ear - your sense of relative pitch will improve, interval recognition will improve, your ability to find the same note anywhere on the fretboard will improve. Lets not forget that part of ear training is learning to recognise time signature and being able to not only play the right notes, but also play them at the right time.

[corporealJigsor]

You're making too big a deal out it. One month, perhaps half an hour a day, basically just playing and copying, that's all it'll take.

 

 

I used to be able to read music when i was a child, so i know how hard it isnt.

[corporealJigsor]

I was just about to say that! There's too many false distinctions made, learning to read music isn't just learning to read - it is a course in learning the fretboard, learning music theory, learning timing and yeh improving your ear - your sense of relative pitch will improve, interval recognition will improve, your ability to find the same note anywhere on the fretboard will improve. Lets not forget that part of ear training is learning to recognise time signature and being able to not only play the right notes, but also play them at the right time.

But it isnt
How does learning to read teach you music theory unless you do that as well?
How does it teach you rhythmn more than playing with music/other musicians?

All of those can be done just as easily without learning to read.

[Knottyhed]

How does it teach you rhythmn more than playing with music/other musicians? All of those can be done just as easily without learning to read.

 

 

How does playing with a bunch of hacks in a blues band (like most people do) help you learn rock solid timing? If your scene is anything like mine, most bands out there aren't actually that good at keeping time.

 

Those bands that are good at keeping time, will throw you out halfway through your first audition if your timing is not rock solid before you turn up to rehearse. The fact is that whilst playing with much better musicians on a regular basis will pull you along and improve you, you'll be pretty lucky to find said bunch of musicians - guitarists are everywhere and finding someone better who doesn't need to be brought up to scratch is easy.

[Knottyhed]

I used to be able to read music when i was a child, so i know how hard it isnt.

 

 

"Frere Jacques" on a recorder at school? Or do you mean you could actually read music properly (in which case you presumably still can and choose not to). If you can read music and learnt it at such a young age, perhaps you've forgotten/take for granted what you actually learnt from it. I know I got alot from learning it, even after over a decade of serious guitar playing.

[corporealJigsor]

The question you should be asking is how can you learn to read music without learning music theory? You can't read music if you don't know the notes/degrees of the scale. You can't read music if you don't know the relationships between the different keys. You can't read music unless you develop the ability to see a group of notes and recognise the chord. You can't read music if you don't know your fretboard inside and out. You can't read music unless you can sub-divide beats with rock solid timing. You can't read music without gaining a deeper insight into the music you're playing and music in general. So to read music you will need to develop and improve these skills which will spill over into all aspects of your playing. As an added bonus you end up being able to read music, which is a useful skill in itself. How does playing with a bunch of hacks in a blues band (like most people do) help you learn rock solid timing? If your scene is anything like mine, most bands out there aren't actually that good at keeping time. Those bands that are good at keeping time, will throw you out halfway through your first audition if your timing is not rock solid before you turn up to rehearse. The fact is that whilst playing with much better musicians on a regular basis will pull you along and improve you, you'll be pretty lucky to find said bunch of musicians - guitarists are everywhere and finding someone better who doesn't need to be brought up to scratch is easy.

 

 

Of course you can read music without being able to do those things:confused:

 

You can read music without playing guitar, so it doesnt give fretboard knowledge.

You can read without learning theory at all. You can read without having rock-solid rhythmn (ive seen people do it:) ).

 

I'll agree you'd need to know your chords though.

 

I'll agree that playing with people with bad timing wont help yours, but playing along to cds will definitely build your timing best (my brother, who is a very skilled saxophonist, learned rhythmn this way.

 

I used to read music reasonably well i think, dont really remember(played piano, bit of recorder when i was very young). I didnt get especially far with any instruments back when i read, i began mostly from scratch when starting guitar properly at 15 (had no rhythmn whatsoever, ear had gone).

 

If you put sheet music in front of me now, i wouldn't be able to identify notes at all.

[jonfinn]

But it isnt How does learning to read teach you music theory unless you do that as well? How does it teach you rhythmn more than playing with music/other musicians? All of those can be done just as easily without learning to read.

I'd like to hear more about your point of view! Sometimes, It's good to see other people do things!

To me, reading music is no different than reading English. When I see the black dots, I hear the sound in my head (much the same as reading a novel and watching a "movie" of the story as you read...). It's hard to imagine NOT being able to do it.

When I read English, I don't think about the individual letters of each word. I just read and think about the meaning.

So how does it teach you rhythm and and playing with other musicians? By showing you the music "internally." If you can truly "read", it means your whole being understands the music, not just your eyes, or your hands. When your "whole being" plays the music, that's a completely different experience than playing the right notes in the right order.

If you couldn't read English, you would not be able to participate in this discussion. Even if we agree to disagree, our lives are richer because we can have exchanges like this.

Having said all that, I don't believe that the ability to read automatically makes me a superior musician. But I will say that it greatly simplifies many things that used to seem impossible.

[Knottyhed]

I'll agree that playing with people with bad timing wont help yours, but playing along to cds will definitely build your timing best (my brother, who is a very skilled saxophonist, learned rhythmn this way.

Just cos he has his chops together doesn't mean he used the best method to get there. I'd like to think i have my chops together, but I know I sure as hell didn't take the most efficient root to get where I am now, and most advice I give here is based not on what I did, but on what I wish I'd done

I have to agree that playing along to backing tracks is very good rythm practice though (just like reading music).

[jeremy_green]

Hey Corporealjigsor,

What gives? Why the harsh reistance? I am always confused by this stance. Even when I couldnt read I would never have taken the stance against. Like saying eating vegetables isnt good for you ... huh? These guys here who you are speaking to are all excellent players and know a lot about the instrument - not sayin you dont, please dont take it that way. Just there are so many reasons to learn to read - which will improve you as a player. I assume you like me are here for that reason.

I have been playing guitar semi-professionally for over 20 years and only learned how to read properly within the last 2 years and it has improved my understanding vastly. It was a very significant turning point in my playing - i WISH i HAD DONE IT SOONER.

It does do all the things these guys say - hard to imagine or really explain but if you give it a serious go you will see what we are all talking about.

Modern Method for Guitar book one - start there
or not - truly, to each his own.

[Knottyhed]

Hey Corporealjigsor, What gives? Why the harsh reistance? I am always confused by this stance. Even when I couldnt read I would never have taken the stance against. Like saying eating vegetables isnt good for you ... huh? These guys here who you are speaking to are all excellent players

Certainly Mr Jon Finn is! I'm just an advanced hack

Corporealjigsor is entitled to his opinions - and no doubt is a very good player, but the way I see it, is that everyone here who has learnt to read on guitar has said it benefited them as a guitarist and a musician and they wished they'd learnt sooner. If Corporealjigsor is right, then I guess we're all deluded and wrong.

[jeremy_green]

Certainly Mr Jon Finn is! I'm just an advanced hack

Amen on the Jon Finn coment! I will happily join you in the advanced hack category!

Like I said previously it stuns me when guitarists - and it is basically only guitarists (mostly young ones) - who take that stance. IMO - from observation - most just dont want to do the work cause its boring. All the animosity against reading is just excuses and lame ass justifications.

There are so few special gifted exceptions around who are just great because they were made that way. Do you really think you are so blessed and are in this category? You dont need to study and use every method available? Frankly, if so, what are you doing here? Also, wouldn't I have heard of you by now.

To hold up Stevie Ray Vaughan or players like that up as examples of guys who couldnt read and why you shouldnt learn is ... sorry to say ...assinine.

[Mark Wein]

Like I said previously it stuns me when guitarists - and it is basically only guitarists (mostly young ones) - who take that stance.

 

 

To be honest, I have never understood why Guitar is the only instrument where people really think that it is not necessary to learn how to read music.

 

What makes Guitar any different? Mainly the fact that it is harder to become a proficient music reader (on this instrument), but that shouldn't matter.

 

These arguments drive me crazy sometimes...if people don't want to learn how to read, thats fine but to continually argue about it online just seems like a waste of time.

 

I teach reading because after nearly two decades worth of teaching I have found that readers learn the bigger concepts faster...just their understanding of music in the organized sense (with pitch and rhythm), helps them learn theory faster and I can communicate new ideas to them in a standardized language that we BOTH understand and that they can use with other musicians in the outside world and THEY can understand each other...

 

I am not an incredible reader myself. The last time I saw a chart on a gig was about two years ago, and it was composers chicken scratch for a recording that I needed to come up with my own parts for anyway...I am a functional reader, and I teach basic reading to most of my students because I know that for one thing they will benefit greatly in the long run and for another, chances are they are going to get another instructor down the line who will just write Green Day songs out in tab and consider that all they need for music instruction.

 

 

 

OK...sorry about that....I've been lurking and watching this thread for some time, and I have seen the various permutations of this argument for months and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this one...this has been a pet peeve of mine for years...

[Jawbreakerr]

im gonna generalize.. but really, if you are only interested in playing rock/metal/pop, simple harmonic music.. then you dont need to read music.. especially if you are more into making up your own songs.

but for someone like me... im studying jazz. now of course, with jazz, like any style, it can be learned by ear and playing. but, to really get to the root and understanding of it all, being able to read music has helps incredibly. its all great learning coltrane lines by ear, but if i dont understand them within the context of the larger harmonic framework, then how am i ever gonna be able to apply it? ive got to teach my ear to hear these things, and also allow my ear to tell my brain what it is i want, and my brain kinda keeps it in check. because i know theory, sometimes i sing a melody in my head, and i know the note im landing on is a third on the chord, so i can think of a specific chord that fits that bar with the melody note on top.

and the truth is.. it has helped my playing outside of jazz/classical and boosted my awareness 500%!

i still "play by ear" all the time.. but its because ive learned the ideas so well through analysis that it just becomes 2nd nature.. just like blues starts off hard.. and then eventually you get it, and you dont have to think about what chord you are on.. it just flows.

some people have different standards and needs to what they want to achieve. i want to be as much of a "musician" and have an understand of harmony as a classically trained piano player.. i wanna be able to play melodies and phrase like a saxophone. i wanna be able to play rhythmic ideas like the drummer...

reading music and being able to talk about it allows this, and it allows me to exchange ideas with other musicians.

for me.. it is a necessity.. 5 years ago, whenn i was in a popemorock band.. not so much!

but in retrospect, it wouldve made me an even better player within that band, and i woudlve had more interesting harmonic ideas to fit within the pop framework.

ignorance is bliss... now im at the reality that im not gonna ever be where i wanna be on the guitar.. gotta keep reaching!

till i die.

[TheMrDoug]

Different point of view. I learned to read music on another instrument and as a result I have a very solid understanding of rhythm, time signatures, etc. But moving to guitar I have lost a lot of my skills what was an Eb is no longer and Eb as I knew it. The comparison to language is very true. Guitar notation is a language, like Spanish and Italian. Both are similar share a number of characteristics yet are not the same.

 

To say that you can not read music if you do not know the fretboard is not correct, you do not have to have ever seen a guitar to be able to read a chord shape on a page. I know that these notes represent A,E,Db. great I know what the are and I can hear them in my head. A piano player can do this and will have a very reasonable idea of what they are seeing.

 

Rock solid timing....have you ever listened to live music? Does it drive you bonkers? I would guess it does. I would wager a guess that less than 5 percent of bands have anything close to solid timing. This includes the major acts, listen to a live track and what do you hear, beats wandering all over, bass player ahead or behind the drummer, guitar players on another planet and a drummer who must have been drinking to be laying down a rythm like that. Having embraced a theory of timing Vs execution of such are very separate skills. If this was not the case a bad would never speed up when playing live from the energy or the vibe in the room, rather they would play spot on like a drum machine time and time again, and who wants that?

 

One more good point for tab is that it helps prevent new players from dropping out as the would if they had only to learn by ear or from notation. What is the drop out rate in elementary school or High school from having to learn not only how to play this foreign object to but having to learn a new language that uses all of these odd shapes, symbols, and assorted chicken scratch that is nothing like anything they have ever been exposed to before. It's not like we learned to read Runes or San Skirt as kids, but numbers yea we learned them in Kindergarten so they are at least familiar.

 

I end with a question. To those who say learn "by Ear" are you referring to the rhythm patterns or both the notes/chords and the rhythm?

[Jasco]

To be honest, I have never understood why Guitar is the only instrument where people really think that it is not necessary to learn how to read music.

Show me a harmonica player who can read. LOL Maybe Toots Theilman or Mark Salings. What about banjo? Lots of readers there?

[jeremy_green]

What makes Guitar any different? Mainly the fact that it is harder to become a proficient music reader (on this instrument), but that shouldn't matter.

Hey Mark,

Just curious, you say you think it is harder to read on a guitar? What makes you say that? To me the 2 staff thing on a piano is murder! I always felt a bit of a pretender with our little wimpy single staff.

[corporealJigsor]

To be honest, I have never understood why Guitar is the only instrument where people really think that it is not necessary to learn how to read music. What makes Guitar any different? Mainly the fact that it is harder to become a proficient music reader (on this instrument), but that shouldn't matter. These arguments drive me crazy sometimes...if people don't want to learn how to read, thats fine but to continually argue about it online just seems like a waste of time. I teach reading because after nearly two decades worth of teaching I have found that readers learn the bigger concepts faster...just their understanding of music in the organized sense (with pitch and rhythm), helps them learn theory faster and I can communicate new ideas to them in a standardized language that we BOTH understand and that they can use with other musicians in the outside world and THEY can understand each other... I am not an incredible reader myself. The last time I saw a chart on a gig was about two years ago, and it was composers chicken scratch for a recording that I needed to come up with my own parts for anyway...I am a functional reader, and I teach basic reading to most of my students because I know that for one thing they will benefit greatly in the long run and for another, chances are they are going to get another instructor down the line who will just write Green Day songs out in tab and consider that all they need for music instruction. OK...sorry about that....I've been lurking and watching this thread for some time, and I have seen the various permutations of this argument for months and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this one...this has been a pet peeve of mine for years...

Guitarists dont read because they have a readily available alternative.

Of course if someone's just going to give tabs and no instruction then thats rubbish teaching

It no more a waste of time than arguing about anything else on the internet:wave:

[corporealJigsor]

Different point of view. I learned to read music on another instrument and as a result I have a very solid understanding of rhythm, time signatures, etc. But moving to guitar I have lost a lot of my skills what was an Eb is no longer and Eb as I knew it. The comparison to language is very true. Guitar notation is a language, like Spanish and Italian. Both are similar share a number of characteristics yet are not the same. To say that you can not read music if you do not know the fretboard is not correct, you do not have to have ever seen a guitar to be able to read a chord shape on a page. I know that these notes represent A,E,Db. great I know what the are and I can hear them in my head. A piano player can do this and will have a very reasonable idea of what they are seeing. Rock solid timing....have you ever listened to live music? Does it drive you bonkers? I would guess it does. I would wager a guess that less than 5 percent of bands have anything close to solid timing. This includes the major acts, listen to a live track and what do you hear, beats wandering all over, bass player ahead or behind the drummer, guitar players on another planet and a drummer who must have been drinking to be laying down a rythm like that. Having embraced a theory of timing Vs execution of such are very separate skills. If this was not the case a bad would never speed up when playing live from the energy or the vibe in the room, rather they would play spot on like a drum machine time and time again, and who wants that? One more good point for tab is that it helps prevent new players from dropping out as the would if they had only to learn by ear or from notation. What is the drop out rate in elementary school or High school from having to learn not only how to play this foreign object to but having to learn a new language that uses all of these odd shapes, symbols, and assorted chicken scratch that is nothing like anything they have ever been exposed to before. It's not like we learned to read Runes or San Skirt as kids, but numbers yea we learned them in Kindergarten so they are at least familiar. I end with a question. To those who say learn "by Ear" are you referring to the rhythm patterns or both the notes/chords and the rhythm?

 

 

Youve nailed it about rhthmn imo. Learning standard notation may mean you have rhythmn theory, but doesnt make you play in time. Practice with music/metronome does that, regardless of what else you do.

[corporealJigsor]

No, you can't. True - but I thought this was a guitar forum and took it that I didn't need to explicitly state we were talking about reading music on guitar LOL - I suppose this is true, but at least they'll understand rythm and timing even if they can't apply it well. When I practice reading, I usually use a metronome, so reading music helps my sense of timing. Just cos he has his chops together doesn't mean he used the best method to get there. I'd like to think i have my chops toyogether, but I know I sure as hell didn't take the most efficient root to get where I am now, and most advice I give here is based not on what I did, but on what I wish I'd done I have to agree that playing along to backing tracks is very good rythm practice though (just like reading music).

My brother did use the best methods, he was taught professionally, you only learn rhythmn by playing, not by reading.
You may learn to UNDERSTAND rhythm notation by reading, but that doesnt mean you can then play in time.

You say you use a metronome when pracising reading. I think that explains a lot of this argument. You're associating a lot of benefits from the disciplined practice you do with the exact method you used. IMO the same benefits can be achieved by disciplined practise without standard notation.

[corporealJigsor]

Amen on the Jon Finn coment! I will happily join you in the advanced hack category! Like I said previously it stuns me when guitarists - and it is basically only guitarists (mostly young ones) - who take that stance. IMO - from observation - most just dont want to do the work cause its boring. All the animosity against reading is just excuses and lame ass justifications. There are so few special gifted exceptions around who are just great because they were made that way. Do you really think you are so blessed and are in this category? You dont need to study and use every method available? Frankly, if so, what are you doing here? Also, wouldn't I have heard of you by now. To hold up Stevie Ray Vaughan or players like that up as examples of guys who couldnt read and why you shouldnt learn is ... sorry to say ...assinine.

 

 

 

Look do you think learning to read would then make you SRV, hendrix, vai, lane etc. Very few people can ever be that good.

But it does show that theres more than one possible route to being good.

 

Theres no point in being so negative, you should still aspire to be that good even if you probably wont be.

And lets face it, lots of guitarists at ALL levels dont read, its not like it's just geniuses who can get by without reading.

[corporealJigsor]

im gonna generalize.. but really, if you are only interested in playing rock/metal/pop, simple harmonic music.. then you dont need to read music.. especially if you are more into making up your own songs. but for someone like me... im studying jazz. now of course, with jazz, like any style, it can be learned by ear and playing. but, to really get to the root and understanding of it all, being able to read music has helps incredibly. its all great learning coltrane lines by ear, but if i dont understand them within the context of the larger harmonic framework, then how am i ever gonna be able to apply it? ive got to teach my ear to hear these things, and also allow my ear to tell my brain what it is i want, and my brain kinda keeps it in check. because i know theory, sometimes i sing a melody in my head, and i know the note im landing on is a third on the chord, so i can think of a specific chord that fits that bar with the melody note on top. and the truth is.. it has helped my playing outside of jazz/classical and boosted my awareness 500%! i still "play by ear" all the time.. but its because ive learned the ideas so well through analysis that it just becomes 2nd nature.. just like blues starts off hard.. and then eventually you get it, and you dont have to think about what chord you are on.. it just flows. some people have different standards and needs to what they want to achieve. i want to be as much of a "musician" and have an understand of harmony as a classically trained piano player.. i wanna be able to play melodies and phrase like a saxophone. i wanna be able to play rhythmic ideas like the drummer... reading music and being able to talk about it allows this, and it allows me to exchange ideas with other musicians. for me.. it is a necessity.. 5 years ago, whenn i was in a popemorock band.. not so much! but in retrospect, it wouldve made me an even better player within that band, and i woudlve had more interesting harmonic ideas to fit within the pop framework. ignorance is bliss... now im at the reality that im not gonna ever be where i wanna be on the guitar.. gotta keep reaching! till i die.

Would you say your better understanding of music is due to knowing more theory?

It its definitely possible to understand the wider harmonic framework by ear, or by tab for that matter. Eventually you should be able to hear both the other music and what you want to play in your head imo. I have managed this occasionally, but need to work on it far more.

And no one should ever get to where they want on guitar, should always be aiming higher!

If i was playing jazz or classical i would DEFINITELY learn btw.

[jeremy_green]

Look do you think learning to read would then make you SRV, hendrix, vai, lane etc. Very few people can ever be that good. But it does show that theres more than one possible route to being good. Theres no point in being so negative, you should still aspire to be that good even if you probably wont be. And lets face it, lots of guitarists at ALL levels dont read, its not like it's just geniuses who can get by without reading.

 

 

No that is not what I am saying at all, I mean I will never be anywhere near as good as those guys. I try to be and will continue to try but I realize that I need all the help I can get. I was always considered "a natural" by those around me as were most likely most of us here. But there is a HUGE difference between that and a genius. BTW not to nit pick but Steve Vai is extremely proficient in his reading skills. He started out by transcribing Zappas works to notation and Frank was so impressed with the accuracy that he brought him on.

 

I am not meaning to be negative directly at you, sorry if I came across that way - I have no beef with you whatsoever. Nor do I care if you learn to read. All I am saying is that ARGUMENT itself is asinine. I hear that one all the time "great player X never knew how read and he did pretty good" it is ludicrous. The rest of us mortals need all the help we can get in putting all the pieces together. Ear Training, Theory, Reading, experience all that and many more (in no particular order) are all critical to your overall ability.

 

Reading was an avoided step by me for years - but it helped huge. Clearly these other people had the same experience. It has nothing to do with the style of music you play. If you want to be better it will help you.

 

But If you just want to be a rock star then dont bother - just get at it. Nobody cares what notes you play just how fast.

[Mark Wein]

Show me a harmonica player who can read. LOL Maybe Toots Theilman or Mark Salings. What about banjo? Lots of readers there?

 

 

True in that regard...but outside of the bluegrass and folk worlds (where there are some obviously ripping players who probably don't read) how true is it?

 

[Mark Wein]

Hey Mark, Just curious, you say you think it is harder to read on a guitar? What makes you say that? To me the 2 staff thing on a piano is murder! I always felt a bit of a pretender with our little wimpy single staff.

 

I have always found reading on Piano to be easier, partially because you only have one of each pitch on the instrument. If you take the notes E, F and G on the first string of the guitar, how many different permutations of those three notes can you play IN THAT OCTAVE ONLY? I count 13 different ways on my 22 fret strat....deciding an area of the neck to read in is part of the issue...as we become more experienced readers it isn't such a big deal but for a beginner I think that complicates things quite a bit...

 

The two staves thing on Piano never bothered me because you learn typically learn to read the treble clef first with some simple stuff and they gradually bring the left hand in with the Bass clef...

 

EDIT (just occurred to me) If you think about it, you find lots of kids under 10 years of age reading with both hands on Piano, so it can't be that difficult...getting those same kids to read on guitar is a different story...

[corporealJigsor]

No that is not what I am saying at all, I mean I will never be anywhere near as good as those guys. I try to be and will continue to try but I realize that I need all the help I can get. I was always considered "a natural" by those around me as were most likely most of us here. But there is a HUGE difference between that and a genius. BTW not to nit pick but Steve Vai is extremely proficient in his reading skills. He started out by transcribing Zappas works to notation and Frank was so impressed with the accuracy that he brought him on. I am not meaning to be negative directly at you, sorry if I came across that way - I have no beef with you whatsoever. Nor do I care if you learn to read. All I am saying is that ARGUMENT itself is asinine. I hear that one all the time "great player X never knew how read and he did pretty good" it is ludicrous. The rest of us mortals need all the help we can get in putting all the pieces together. Ear Training, Theory, Reading, experience all that and many more (in no particular order) are all critical to your overall ability. Reading was an avoided step by me for years - but it helped huge. Clearly these other people had the same experience. It has nothing to do with the style of music you play. If you want to be better it will help you. But If you just want to be a rock star then dont bother - just get at it. Nobody cares what notes you play just how fast.

 

 

I put vai and lane on that list because they are proficient readers, and just as much genius as the non-readers. My point was that there are so many guitarists at ALL levels of talent who dont read, that its hard to argue that it really hurts you.

All the first argument shows is that not reading doesnt limit how good you can become. I dont really think its an amazing argument, but it does show it isnt essential.