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Basic Rhythm (Counting) Advice


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Posted

I was listening to a few of my old recordings, and the one thing that jumped out at me was that I need to focus on precise rhythm playing. Beyond a certain point I tend to just shut off my brain and go based on feel, and I don't think that's a good idea. Sometimes it sounds right, but sometimes it all falls apart. I don't really follow any counting convention, and I am wondering if my playing is suffering because of it.

 

Are there any conventions you use for counting out rhythm besides 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &...?

 

What do you do when sixteenths enter into the equation? What about x-tuplets. What about syncopation? And do you only count when there are notes, or do you count the rests, too?

 

If you have any advice or can point me to any resources, it would be greatly appreciated!

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Posted

Counting? What's dat? ;)

 

I haven't literally counted in my head while playing for years - too distracting and justs add more complexity onto the idea of following along and staying tight. I tap my foot to keep the general rhythm/beat and 'scat' it in my head - that is, feel the timing in there without numerizing it (that's NumberWang!).

 

It's hard to describe. The foot tapping becomes unconscious but acts like a metronome droning out the beat which can be useful for complex rhythm sections. In your head, you shouldn't be thinking a whole lot about it unless you really want it to fall apart. Finger memory should be taking over and have the guitar playing in your head so that it flows to your hands' movements. Basically, all of that energy counting in your head detracts from the energy needed to keep the timing.

 

My thoughts on it anyway.

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Posted

Get a metronome and practice with that.

 

its the best way to learn good musical time.

 

online one here

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

 

 

Good timing is one of the most important aspects of music

but also, don't let time become your master; in the sense that music is an art & not a science :)

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Posted

Counting? What's dat?
;)

I haven't literally counted in my head while playing for years - too distracting and justs add more complexity onto the idea of following along and staying tight. I tap my foot to keep the general rhythm/beat and 'scat' it in my head - that is, feel the timing in there without numerizing it (that's NumberWang!).


It's hard to describe. The foot tapping becomes unconscious but acts like a metronome droning out the beat which can be useful for complex rhythm sections. In your head, you shouldn't be thinking a whole lot about it unless you really want it to fall apart. Finger memory should be taking over and have the guitar playing in your head so that it flows to your hands' movements. Basically, all of that energy counting in your head detracts from the energy needed to keep the timing.


My thoughts on it anyway.

Thanks for the reply!

 

What you have described now is just about my exact way of doing it right now. I try to get inside of the music so that I am one with the rhythm, and can play it without thinking. The problem is, it doesn't always work as planned - sometimes it goes nicely, sometimes it falls apart.

 

I think if I could mentally 'map out' where I want to go, rhythmically speaking, then I would be fine. This is what I want to achieve through the counting. If I could achieve it by an other means, well, that would be fine too, but right now mindlessly wandering around in the forest is currently getting me to the goal about half the time, and getting me ridiculously lost the rest of the time. Ha! :)

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Posted

Sometimes I still count it out in my head. For example i've been trying to nail sultans of swing note for note with the backing track and its hard to keep track of everything without counting it off in your head especially without the lyrics. I don't mind breaking it down slow, counting it out, and then feel it out once I've got it. I've also been doing a lot of sight reading lately and I end up writing the beats out on the sheet of music and babying my way through. I don't mind leaving the training wheels on.

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Posted

I learnt how to count "1 2 3 4" to each measure (if it was in 4/4 time of course) long ago. Then if I needed to keep track of the number of measueres, and this was a samba group and we'd play instrumental percussion peices with no melody so yes, I needed to keep track of the number of measuers and had no melody to follow, then I'd count "1 2 3 4" followed by "2 2 3 4" and then "3 2 3 4" and so on.

 

What system is the best depends on what works in the given situation. These days I seldom count. Most of the time there is a melody or a set of chord changes to follow as well. If all you depend on is your ability to count things can go very wrong, music is in the end about listening.

 

However, to be able to count both the beats and the measures if necessary is a great thing. Another side of it is that it's great for communication. You can explain to other musicians on what beat in what measure you want something to happen.

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Posted
Use words that have x-syllables. For example, for a quintuplet use
hippopotamus
.

Thanks, I gave each of these a shot a last night, and it worked very nicely.

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Posted

Depends, blues trio eh, if you can't feel it, forget it. Tight band ? You better have it down to every nook and cranny - with a smile.

 

It sounds like the old chops or feel debate, the one that will go until eternity. The way I see it, what you express is limited by what you have to say (feel) and how well you can say it (chops.) I don't want to be limited by my weak rhythm skills, so I am going to work on them. Might need them greatly, might only need them a little. If I have them, I can use them, if I don't, I can't. Going back to my metaphor, though, it doesn't matter how articulate my speaking is, if I can't find something to say I probably shouldn't be talking. :) On that note, I'm going to go practice some rhythm.

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Posted

The only time I really count is mainly during off-time shots or during odd time song segments or intentionally messed up rhythm parts. During solos I rely on my ear for the changes and make sure I am locking in with some aspect of the drum part (typically the hi-hat).

 

By the very nature of it the drummer is usually doing the breakdowns in a basic beat. so dependent on what feel you are after most likely it can be found right there if you need it.

 

Usually issues of timing in decent players has more to do with the sync between your picking and fretting hand. You may be hearing it correctly but the execution is slightly off. Spending mucho time practicing everything with a metronome helps immensely.

 

I have used konokol for counting breakdowns. If you are unfamiliar with it google it. It is a very cool counting system used by Asian tabla players. John McLaughlin uses it and has a DVD out there. I just saw Steve Smith in a drum clinic using it to insane levels. It is a very old legitimate system that is just gaining ground over this side of the pond. Worth checking out indeed.

 

The most important thing is that you are aware of it - easy to fix something if you know what needs fixing.

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Posted

There is a indian way to count called Konnakol ( some spell it Konokol ).

A count to 4 would be Ta Ka Di Mi ( there is a book also calles you can Ta ka di mi this).

Best

Mita

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Posted

I have used konokol for counting breakdowns. If you are unfamiliar with it google it. It is a very cool counting system used by Asian tabla players. John McLaughlin uses it and has a DVD out there. I just saw Steve Smith in a drum clinic using it to insane levels. It is a very old legitimate system that is just gaining ground over this side of the pond. Worth checking out indeed.

 

:thu:

 

I googled it and started a thread over at HCGJ.

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Posted

i never learned to do the 1&2& thing and constantly did the whole bar in quavers (12345678) just stuck with it but now i can sort of turn off the 2,4 6,8 and concentrate on the main beat. but the important thing is to remember where the accents come.

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Posted

Yes. 123456 or 12341234 or 12345678 don't mean anything - they all represent nothing to musical timing (for the most part). It is the accent that defines the beat/rhythm/syncopation. This is what distinguishes 123456 from 1234 and so on. Realizing this makes odd timings interesting (such as 7:4 or 7:8). Now you are required to subdivide the beats over a measure in some way. You could simply do 1234567 (or any of the others accented). But it gets interesting when you do something like 1234567.

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Posted

It sounds like the old chops or feel debate, the one that will go until eternity. The way I see it, what you express is limited by what you have to say (feel) and how well you can say it (chops.) I don't want to be limited by my weak rhythm skills, so I am going to work on them. Might need them greatly, might only need them a little. If I have them, I can use them, if I don't, I can't. Going back to my metaphor, though, it doesn't matter how articulate my speaking is, if I can't find something to say I probably shouldn't be talking.
:)
On that note, I'm going to go practice some rhythm.

 

I'm just saying it's about competence. Feel IS precision. Lionel Richie is a good example. Beautiful phrasing that seems magically suspended in musical space. And on the technical side, simply because his - and indeed many professional singers' counting is precise to the 32nd note at least. N'bad for ballads don't you think?

 

OR

 

Rhythm section in an RnB band; maybe one or two 9th chords the whole tune - and on the beat no less. What's to say there? You're infra structure. But as such the part has to lay in there perfect. That's all kinds of chops. If you go by Ray Charles or Steely Dan, there's no debate whatsoever. :D

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Posted

Get a metronome and practice with that.


its the best way to learn good musical time.


online one here

http://www.metronomeonline.com/


Good timing is one of the most important aspects of music

but also, don't let time become your master; in the sense that music is an art & not a science
:)

 

Musical time is one thing but stratitude was asking how to count basic rhythm, time is not rhythm.

 

With the 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +, vocalize 1 and 2 and etc., and for sixteenth note patterns 1 e + e 2 e + e 3 e + e etc. you don't get very far because it doesn't really flow pronouncing/vocalizing wise no matter how good you are at it.

 

I guess you need to learn a drum language in order to get it flowing. Rhythm, from Greek ??????

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Posted

The south Indian Tala system is a drum language for memorizing rhyhtmic structures, actually for drum beats, particularly for drums such as Mirdangam, Ghatham etc.. The Mirdangam is used in the Carnatic music of Southern India. The little tambourine as played by this fabulous musician who plays with McLaughlin is called Kanjeera. The north Indian mnemonic drum language as in use for tabla is different from the south Indian. The crux with both, the south and north Indian drum language is that they do not really include syllables for rests but are a linear continuum with almost no rests.

 

 

The mnemonic drum language from south India is outlined under the umbrella term TALA.

 

 

There are thirty-five TALA:

 

Thethirty-fiveTALA.jpg

 

 

TALA consists of ANGA, JATI and J

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Posted

I use an empty coffee can and practice drumming on it. I think it helps me with counting rhythm. I also cut some branches in the park and use them for drumsticks. I count while banging on picnic tables in the park.

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Posted

Thanks for all this counting help.

 

That same night I went back to the song I was working on, and wrote out in the 1 e & a method over each note what the timing should be. I played back the song several times not worrying about the notes, just counting out the rhythm I wrote, and it miraculously all made perfect sense. It was a breakthrough on that song - just what I needed. About three more days of practicing and it was performance ready - woo hoo!

 

It does seem that this one-ee-and-uh method lacks a flow, somehow. It gives an idea of the rhythm, subdivisions especially, but doesn't itself seem to be very rhythmic, maybe because each word doesn't begin with a consonant to form the beat. Definitely a 'duh' forms a better beat than an 'uh' sound - Just try counting a song with one-ee-and-uh vs. done-dee-dand-duh - way more rhythmic!

 

So on that note, no point in reinventing the wheel, right? I checked out the Konnakol stuff and found it very interesting! It has a real flow to it, one that puts the western counting system to shame. I went back to the song I was working on, scribbled out my one-ee-and-uhs and wrote 'duh's and 'ta-ka's over it - now counting it out is way more precise. I highly recommend this system. The only problem I have with it is the difficulty to tell where about in a bar you are - the 1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a method made that more clear - that being said this doesn't really change the rhythm... if anything it's more of an organization thing. Perhaps the time signature system is less important in south Indian music?

 

In any case, I'll be using this method from here on out. Thanks a lot!

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Posted

 

Thanks for all this counting help.


That same night I went back to the song I was working on, and wrote out in the 1 e & a method over each note what the timing should be. I played back the song several times not worrying about the notes, just counting out the rhythm I wrote, and it miraculously all made perfect sense. It was a breakthrough on that song - just what I needed. About three more days of practicing and it was performance ready - woo hoo!


It does seem that this one-ee-and-uh method lacks a flow, somehow. It gives an idea of the rhythm, subdivisions especially, but doesn't itself seem to be very rhythmic, maybe because each word doesn't begin with a consonant to form the beat. Definitely a 'duh' forms a better beat than an 'uh' sound - Just try counting a song with one-ee-and-uh vs. done-dee-dand-duh - way more rhythmic!


So on that note, no point in reinventing the wheel, right? I checked out the Konnakol stuff and found it very interesting! It has a real flow to it, one that puts the western counting system to shame. I went back to the song I was working on, scribbled out my one-ee-and-uhs and wrote 'duh's and 'ta-ka's over it - now counting it out is way more precise. I highly recommend this system. The only problem I have with it is the difficulty to tell where about in a bar you are - the 1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a method made that more clear - that being said this doesn't really change the rhythm... if anything it's more of an organization thing. Perhaps the time signature system is less important in south Indian music?


In any case, I'll be using this method from here on out. Thanks a lot!

 

 

 

Typically for me the "one-e-and-ah" method is fine for counting even more simple rhythms. I use the konokol method more to help me hear and clearly feel the fives, sevens and nine note groupings. Especially when played over top of an even time signature. It sounds very cool in 4/4 to play groups of 5s in a portion of a solo.

 

Try listening to any song - and sing 'ta-ka-taki-ta" evenly with the beat. You can clearly hear the 5 feel. Same with a seven or a nine - very usable stuff. It helps to spice up some tired old scale runs and licks.

 

So my system is a hybrid - kind of messed - but works for me.

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Posted

Counting is a big problem for me so this is a great topic. If I already know the song well I can more or less internalize the changes and know when they are coming but if I don't I can have big problems.

 

Moreover counting itself as one person mentioned can mess me up. I freely admit that this is one of the major obstacles I have. I can count 1&2&3&4 or even 1e&a2...if it is slow enough but if it gets to fast or if what I am trying to do gets more complex then I cannot split my counting and playing into different parts of my head and the results are disasterous. Tapping my foot can have the same problem (kind of a walking and chewing gum at the same time problem I fear). I hope to be able to work through it and I have a teacher how is working on this very thing with me but I fear I have started too late to get serious

 

I spend a fair bit of time with a metronone and play along with songs to try and improve this. Any other tips? I think the Konokol method could mess me up further at this stage

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