Members maromad89 Posted September 7, 2008 Members Posted September 7, 2008 Hey, which are the essential scales used by Jimmy Page, Hendrix, Vaughan, Clapton (In Cream), Duane Allman, David Gilmour, Brian May and Jeff Beck. I hope you can help me, at least with one artist
Members pixelchemist Posted September 7, 2008 Members Posted September 7, 2008 Pentatonic and blues scale the pentatonic and major scales will get you very far.. i really like lydian, mixolydian, and harmonic minor too but really just get the pentatonic down solid learn the box patterns and you will be good for most rock/blues out there
Members Music Calgary Posted September 7, 2008 Members Posted September 7, 2008 All those guys are focusing mainly on the blues scale, i.e. minor pentatonic plus the tritone. If you get good with the blues scale that's definitely an ideal starting point to playing their music.
Members gennation Posted September 8, 2008 Members Posted September 8, 2008 Here's the Super-imposed scale that pretty much all of those players use in one way or another, it combines the Minor and Major Pents, Blues, Dorian, Mixolydian, and other scales all into one view: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm The one Beck used for the fusion/Wired/Jan Hammer era is a form of a Dominant Pentatonic scale. Here's a quick primer one it: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/DomPent/DominantPentatonic.htm and here's a good video tutorial dealing with it and more: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide/indslidehome_frames.htm While most of the guitarist you mentioned use a R, b3, M3, 5, 6, b7 type scale, Beck (Hammer and Mclaughlin is where Jeff got it from) eliminates the b3 and adds the 4. So you have: R, M3, 4, 5, 6, b7. Now, if you think of the scale from the b7 though it REALLY fuels the scale. So think of the scale from the view point of a whole-step below the Root, or the b7. Like so: b7 R M3 4 5 6 b7. Starting with the b7 gives the scale a "pickup" in a way and will help you cop that "Jeff Beck" sound.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 While most of the guitarist you mentioned use a R, b3, M3, 5, 6, b7 type scale No, they are not. The Major 3 is not part of the Blues Scale.
Members bigboy_78 Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 No, they are not. The Major 3 is not part of the Blues Scale.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 bigboy_78 just so you actually know the facts here... The "blues scale which contains the major three", i.e. Benward/Saker is just a nine-note variation on the major scale which includes the flatted three and flatted seven to "show African influence by alternating with the natural 3rd and natural 7th". Certainly not to be mistaken with the more traditional blues scale most commonly used by the players named above. Watch the videos, listening to the recordings, read the music, check the interviews -- you'll see. Does that mean they never used a major three? No. The Blues Scale such as it is according to most experts is not intended to define a set of notes which restrict the "blue notes" a player can use to inflect a phrase, i.e. major seven, major three, major 9, whatever... The core blues scale is hexatonic, i.e. minor pentatonic + the #4/b5 -- and only intended to be a framework for what a real blues master can do, i.e. generate beautiful music which is full of chromatic movement. The only other major variation I'm aware of is the seven note blues scale, i.e. a major scale with flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th. Still no major three... So, I'm not sure what it is you're wiping your forehead about, but make no bones about it -- the core blues scale such as those guys focused on in a big way is a minor pentatonic plus flat five, with the more obvious "blue notes" being the b3, b5, and the b7. It's the same scale we all hammered on for years, and thank god for that. That being said if you have actual examples of the guys named in this thread soloing on "R, b3, M3, 5, 6, b7" let's see. I've learned a ton of solos by these guys and overwhelmingly they are based on "R, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7" as far as I can see.
Members gennation Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 No, they are not. The Major 3 is not part of the Blues Scale. Once you get past the "Blues pattern" you'll find that pretty much everything you do in Blues (or Dominant based music) resolves to the chord (scale wise that would be the Mixolydian scale). So, while you SEE a pattern that's termed a Blues Scale you do little things such as bending the releases the tension of the pattern to the chord base. Without going into it here, check out this lesson I did a while ago here at HCLL: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982759 That will explain it in detail. Also read the tutorial I posted above, they'll show you the power of the Pentatonic and Blues scales but also show how to exploit it. And the video lesson will get you into some of the Beck sounds with that Dominant Pentatonic scale.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 Once you get past the "Blues pattern" you'll find that pretty much everything you do in Blues (or Dominant based music) resolves to the chord (scale wise that would be the Mixolydian scale) My disagreement aside, that has almost nothing to do with what the OP is asking here. It's really very easy -- go learn some David Gilmour solos. Then tell me what scale they are overwhelmingly based upon. That's all there is to it. if you conclude Mixolydian or "R, b3, M3, 5, 6, b7" then you simply are not learning the music or listening properly. Does that mean he never used Mixolydian? Nope, there's always an exception or two to everything. Plenty of cases where Gilmour will slip into Lydian (or other mode) for a few bars during a solo. It just means he overwhelmingly based his solos on Minor Pentatonic. Argue with that all you want, it's pointless -- the solos speak for themselves. So if you want to learn to play like that it would be counterproductive to invest your energy elsewhere at first. There's aboslutely no good to come from convincing the OP that "pretty much everything resolves to the Mixolydian". I don't think any of those guitarists mentioned here were putting that forward. These guys were simply emulating Bluesmen. It's real simple. Like beans and toast... Listen to the solos, read the music -- and you will see! Cheers.
Members gennation Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 My disagreement aside, that has almost nothing to do with what the OP is asking here. It's really very easy -- go learn some David Gilmour solos. Then tell me what scale they are overwhelmingly based upon. That's all there is to it. if you conclude Mixolydian or "R, b3, M3, 5, 6, b7" then you simply are not learning the music or listening properly. Does that mean he never used Mixolydian? Nope, there's always an exception or two to everything. Plenty of cases where Gilmour will slip into Lydian (or other mode) for a few bars during a solo. It just means he overwhelmingly based his solos on Minor Pentatonic. Argue with that all you want, it's pointless -- the solos speak for themselves. So if you want to learn to play like that it would be counterproductive to invest your energy elsewhere at first. There's aboslutely no good to come from convincing the OP that "pretty much everything resolves to the Mixolydian". I don't think any of those guitarists mentioned here were putting that forward. These guys were simply emulating Bluesmen. It's real simple. Like beans and toast... Listen to the solos, read the music -- and you will see! Cheers. Straight up Blues is Dominant based music. All of the players listed are Blues based players. If you don't see the tension in the Blues scale (primarily Minor) being played over a primarily major chord then you'll won't understand...but are also missing a HUGE aspect of Blues playing. My comments were point on with what the OP opened with. I have listened and learned these guys stuff for decades, if it's standard Blues, it's Dominant. You can play the dots from the Blues scale all you want, but you the finer points of the style are the resolves you get from the chord. Read through those things I posted, it's all in there.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 You can play the dots from the Blues scale all you want No one I know does that. As I posted: the "blue notes" are not restricted by anything but the chromatic scale. The core Blues Scale as used by the players the OP mentions is overwhelmingly centered around Minor Pentatonic. Period. Read the music, your opinions do not alter the notes. If you hear the blues as always relating to a major three then good for you. That's certainly not something I'd focus on with students seeking to emulate the players listed here. standard Blues These players are not playing standard blues. These are rock guitarists.
Members guitartster Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 I see many younger players learning how to play blazingly fast licks and they have little vibrato technique and can't make sting bends sound like the guitar is talking. Pentatonic scales, minor scales all work great in the context of British and American blues-rock but without listening to vibrato and bends it is all worthless and devoid of emotion.
Members gennation Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 No one I know does that. As I posted: the "blue notes" are not restricted by anything but the chromatic scale. The core Blues Scale as used by the players the OP mentions is overwhelmingly centered around Minor Pentatonic. Period. Read the music, your opinions do not alter the notes. If you hear the blues as always relating to a major three then good for you. That's certainly not something I'd focus on with students seeking to emulate the players listed here. These players are not playing standard blues. These are rock guitarists. You mean to tell me you never teach your Blues students that you can bend the b3 (or the #9 in relation to the chord) to the M3? (or a couple of other microtones between the b3 and the M3?) I bet you do. You don't teach them how the 6 resolves to the b7 or the 5th? You don't show them the bend from the 9 to the M3 or going down from the 9 to the Root? I bet you do. You may not realize it but ALL of those moves take you from tension to release. In Blues...Eric does it, Hendrix did it, Beck certainly does it, Gilmore definitely does it...and I bet you do it too or it wouldn't be the Blues. Read this link I posted this morning: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982759 These are not my opinions, this is how people have played the Blues forever.
Members mosiddiqi Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 ^^ All I can add is that when I play the blues scale, the b3 pretty much always gets "pushed" either right up to, or just towards the M3, probably always when it's up against a dominant chord....I didn't know I was doing this until I listened back to myself. I would have said "I just play the minor pentatonic"..till I listened back what I was actually doing.
Members gennation Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 ^^All I can add is that when I play the blues scale, the b3 pretty much always gets "pushed" either right up to, or just towards the M3, probably always when it's up against a dominant chord....I didn't know I was doing this until I listened back to myself. I would have said "I just play the minor pentatonic"..till I listened back what I was actually doing. That is such a common move it's hard to play that note and not give it that bend/push over a Dom7 chord. The 6 (to the 5th and b7) and the 9 (to the Root and M3) create some nice resolving moves too. Even though those are common moves, those two notes don't always need to resolve and work well as an extension to the dom7 chord. Playing the #9 over a I7 is going to want to resolve somewhere, either back to a note in the dom7 chord (the M3) or the Mixolydian scale (the M3 or 2) or the next chord in the progression (particularly the 5 of the IV chord in a Blues progression).
Members mosiddiqi Posted September 9, 2008 Members Posted September 9, 2008 ^^ Indeed. Regarding the OP, I think we all agree that those guitarists mentioned do all play primarily from the Pentatonic/Blues box, and these are the scales that the OP should start with. But, I do believe that the "superimposed" scale which adds in elements from the Dorian/Mixolydian modes is essential to really getting a grip on rock guitar soloing. The pure Blues scale is for sure the framework, but those extra notes really add the colour I think. Off the top of my head, many of the classic Page, Hendrix, Clapton, Blackmore solos use the superimposed scale rather than the "pure" blues scale. As you mentioned Mike, Beck's use of the Dominant pentatonic is "his" signature in the way that Page's use of the b6 from the aeolian mode in a lot of his minor blues playing, "since i've been loving you" for example, also the fantastic solo in "achilles last stand"..which I'm learning, or rather, re-learning at the moment!.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 Indeed. Regarding the OP, I think we all agree that those guitarists mentioned do all play primarily from the Pentatonic/Blues box, and these are the scales that the OP should start with. That's all I've been saying... You mean to tell me you never teach your Blues students that you can bend the b3 (or the #9 in relation to the chord) to the M3? The OP here had a specific question. According to my experience as a teacher you've obfuscated a very simple moment. All he needs to do right now is learn the 5 positions of the Minor Pentatonic scale and work them over some backing tracks -- then it will be time for the next step. Very simple for him and very rewarding -- because developing fluency with the minor pentatonic scales is the most important step to emulating the styles of the guitar heroes mentioned here. All I can add is that when I play the blues scale, the b3 pretty much always gets "pushed" either right up to, or just towards the M3 If you are always pushing the C up to the C# in the solo to Stairway to Heaven then I just can't imagine what you're thinking/hearing. No offense but that is *utterly bizarre* -- and to be fair I think it does a disservice to the OP to imply this should be the case. It shouldn't. You should hear that C as home sweet home.
Members mosiddiqi Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 That's all I've been saying... The OP here had a specific question. According to my experience as a teacher you've obfuscated a very simple moment. All he needs to do right now is learn the 5 positions of the Minor Pentatonic scale and work them over some backing tracks -- then it will be time for the next step. Very simple for him and very rewarding -- because developing fluency with the minor pentatonic scales is the most important step to emulating the styles of the guitar heroes mentioned here. If you are always pushing the C up to the C# in the solo to Stairway to Heaven then I just can't imagine what you're thinking/hearing. No offense but that is *utterly bizarre* -- and to be fair I think it does a disservice to the OP to imply this should be the case. It shouldn't. You should hear that C as home sweet home. Absolutely, in this instance, with a chord progression of Amin/GMaj/FMaj, the A minor pentatonic with a clear and strong "C" is the way to go. I really was referring more to "blues" playing and playing the blues scale over Dominant chords. In this case, NOT pushing the C up towards C# would sound a bit "flat" I think. Certainly this is a very common move for Clapton/SRV etc.. But, you're right in that as we've agreed, the OP should for now concentrate on the minor/major pentatonic scales all over the fingerboard, and as someone else mentioned, learn how to bend accurately and apply vibrato. That'll get the OP a long way down the road..
Members gennation Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 That's all I've been saying... The OP here had a specific question. According to my experience as a teacher you've obfuscated a very simple moment. All he needs to do right now is learn the 5 positions of the Minor Pentatonic scale and work them over some backing tracks -- then it will be time for the next step. Very simple for him and very rewarding -- because developing fluency with the minor pentatonic scales is the most important step to emulating the styles of the guitar heroes mentioned here. If you are always pushing the C up to the C# in the solo to Stairway to Heaven then I just can't imagine what you're thinking/hearing. No offense but that is *utterly bizarre* -- and to be fair I think it does a disservice to the OP to imply this should be the case. It shouldn't. You should hear that C as home sweet home. Stairway to Heaven is not the Blues. That's the Key of A Minor (Am-G-F). Go back and read my posts, we/I were talking about the Blues based playing of the players mentioned...specifically Dominant based playing. Stairway has nothing to do with that. Some people might just be happy learning some dots up and down the fretboard and calling it by a scale name but (as a teacher) you should be showing them what's really going on. Those "dots" mean something musically...they are not just finger patterns. The bulk of Dominant and Blues based playing is built on The Minor Pentatonic scale resolving to the Mixolydian scale, or the dom7 chord. Why not understand that right off the bat? Why not learn what each of those notes in the Blues scale is really doing...and not doing? For a ton of examples all he has to do is read through any of the links I've posted, it's all there...he'll find licks in the styles of alomost all those players mentioned. Some people (I'll mention no name) could play for a long time and never realize this Minor Pent over dom7 chord connection...I'm just trying to help him see what many teachers don't even understand yet. It will put your playing directly in line with all of those players the OP mentioned much quicker than just playing a Blues scale. It's the difference between the sour note players and the ones playing in the pocket.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 Stairway to Heaven is not the Blues. Give it up... If you don't hear the solo in Stairway to Heaven as Blues-based you simply have no clue about guitar music. At all. Sorry. Not one clue. Reread the OPs question... OP, don't listen to all the rhetoric. Seek ye out a Minor Pentatonic and have fun -- the rest is just jibberish from people who think needless arguing makes them appear more knowledgeable than they really are. Get used to it, such is the world of guitar. Theory is not playing. Just play. And have fun.
Members mosiddiqi Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 Give it up... If you don't hear the solo in Stairway to Heaven as Blues-based you simply have no clue about guitar music. At all. Sorry. Not one clue. Reread the OPs question... OP, don't listen to all the rhetoric. Seek ye out a Minor Pentatonic and have fun -- the rest is just jibberish from people who think needless arguing makes them appear more knowledgeable than they really are. Get used to it, such is the world of guitar. Theory is not playing. Just play. And have fun. Well, that we can all agree on I'm sure. As for the rest of if, I think we're all only trying to help, so I'm sure we can keep it civil. The OP's question was actually answered by the very first response. After that, some more information was shared regarding how the minor pentatonic can be "widened" to encompass many of the sounds heard by all the mentioned players and that's all really...I'm not sure what we're arguing about or why things like "you have no clue about guitar music" are being said. That's just rude.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 As for the rest of if, I think we're all only trying to help, so I'm sure we can keep it civil. The OP's question was actually answered by the very first response. After that, some more information was shared regarding how the minor pentatonic can be "widened" to encompass many of the sounds heard by all the mentioned players and that's all really...I'm not sure what we're arguing about or why things like "you have no clue about guitar music" are being said. That's just rude. If you want to post in a learning forum that the solo to Stairway to Heaven is not blues-based -- then by all means I plan to be rude to you. Such is life jellybean. If you spent half the time playing/listening that you do parsing semantics...
Members Virgman Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 Give it up... You are in the lead for "asswipe of the month". I see no clear challengers to your winning.
Members Music Calgary Posted September 10, 2008 Members Posted September 10, 2008 You are in the lead for "asswipe of the month".I see no clear challengers to your winning. Uh huh. Well, if that post made you feel good then perhaps we have a challenger after all...
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