how do you guys count quintuplets or septuplets?

[Santuzzo]

I'm trying to practice quintuplets (5 notes per beat) and septuplets (7 notes per beat), and I don't feel them yet like I do 16th's or 16th triplets, so I do need to count them.

I know any word having 5 respectively 7 syllables will work, but I was just wondering do you guys count those out at all, adn if yes, how do you count?

 

I'm using "Ra-Ke-Ti-Ki-Ta" for quintuplets and "Ra-Ke-Ti-Ki-Ta-Ke-Ti" for septuplets.

 

I used to have a teacher who said "Lollobrigida" and "GinaLollobrigida" for qunituplets and septuplets.

 

Anyway, how do you guys manage to get the "feel" of quintuplets and septuplets?

[1001gear]

They go by so rapidly it's easier if you use groups of two and three.

2,3

da da-d|da da-d|da da-d|

 

3,2

da-d da|da-d da| etc...

[Music Calgary]

Depends on where the accent is. For example in Pink Floyd's money the 3 set has the accent in the center.

 

But generally 5's are counted as 1-2-3, 1-2 or 1-2, 1-2-3. You could also use cut time, so 1-2, 1-2, 1.

 

Septuplets (which I almost never come across) same thing. divide it into groups of 2s and 3s which make sense to the song, i.e. make sure you are following the drummers accents. So for example 1-2,1-2,1-2-3 or 1-2-3,1-2,1-2, etc.

 

The main thing is to repeat them lots to develop a feel if you plan to use them lots.

 

I rarely play sevens personally so I have to admit I can't solo as freely as I would like over patterns of seven -- however I have played them enough to have the basic feel so I don't train wreck either. My guess is most guitarists fall somewhere within that general zone also.

 

[Drew5887]

set up the metronome for a slow tempo, then try to count to 5 or seven evenly between the clicks. You will quickly get the hang of it.

[jeremy_green]

I use the konokol for stuff like that - It speaks so percussively.

 

5's

Ta-Ka Ta-Ka-Ta

 

7's

Ta-Ka-Di-Mi -Ta-Ka-Ta

[StanB]

For septuplet licks - you might want to try adding a tapped note to a regular sextuplet lick and play it with the metronome. The tapped note should fall exactly on the "click". It' s much easier to get the feeling of septuplets this way.

 

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[athena714]

I use the word "university" for quintuplets. Don't know where it come from, but I find it easier to say than any takadidlidoo thing.

[StanB]

I posted a lesson on odd note groupings on my Free Guitar Lessons blog. Check it out...

[jonPhillips]

 

I use the word "university" for quintuplets. Don't know where it come from, but I find it easier to say than any takadidlidoo thing.

 

 

I totally agree. However, I use 'opportunity' for quintuplets and 'incompatibility' for septuplets.

 

This has the unexpected bonus of being able to realise I have an opportunity to play the quintuplets, whilst my playing shows incompatibility with the skill of playing septuplets...

[jeremy_green]

 

I totally agree. However, I use 'opportunity' for quintuplets and 'incompatibility' for septuplets. This has the unexpected bonus of being able to realise I have an opportunity to play the quintuplets, whilst my playing shows incompatibility with the skill of playing septuplets...

 

 

Honestly, you guys should check out the Konokol system for counting. It is way better than using specific words (I used to do that too).

 

The cool thing with the konokol is that the syllables can be strung together so you can flow from sevens to fives and any other seamlessly.

 

So if you want, for example, to string together 2 groups of 5 followed by one group of seven followed by one group of five it is:

 

taka-taka-ta, taka-taka-ta, takadimi-takata, taka-taka-ta

 

Sure you could use your words for this but this is developed as a full system with syllables for all note values.

 

The system isnt new and gimmicky it has been used by Eastern Tabla players for eons. I first got onto it from John McLaughlin (he has a DVD I plan to get on it)

 

I also witnessed a drum clinic with Steve Smith and he demonstrated this in use and it was absolutely incredible.

 

They start out teaching just singing it (internalizing it so it becomes second nature). According to Smith and McLaughlin (and thousands of east indian percussionists : ) once you have it inside it just flows out effortlessly and you start to just feel the breakdowns. I am quite clearly not there yet : )

 

Absolutely not for everyone - but if you are serious it definitely warrants checking into. In my always humble opinion - it is legit.

 

Just food for thought.

[jonPhillips]

Honestly, you guys should check out the Konokol system for counting... ...So if you want, for example, to string together 2 groups of 5 followed by one group of seven followed by one group of five it is: taka-taka-ta, taka-taka-ta, takadimi-takata, taka-taka-ta

 

That certainly sounds logical, I'll give it a go.

 

Although I'm a little worried the wife will think I've gone Maori and am learning the Haka...

[jeremy_green]

That certainly sounds logical, I'll give it a go. Although I'm a little worried the wife will think I've gone Maori and am learning the Haka...

 

Ha! Funny.

 

I felt really a little bizarre with it at first. I have always been a pretty meat and potatoes kind of guys so to be chanting East Indian syllables felt odd.

 

Then again I live in Toronto (one of the most multicultural cities on the planet) so I have seen the values in Eastern systems and their impact on Western musicians first hand. The world is connecting - for good and bad. One of the truly good things is this marriage of the musical styles. I feel like a heathen if i dont take advantage of all the good stuff. The bad stuff is certainly obvious enough to us all.

 

My deeper love and respect for all musicians helps overcome any discomfort I was feeling. To me there is NO recognized tool or approach that should be overlooked. Anything it takes to make me a better musician I am willing to try.

 

Not meaning to preach. This is the Lesson Loft. I believe we are all here to hear different approaches.

 

Cheers!!

[Mike Saville]

I use the house-triangle method!

 

For all the 2-beat parts I think house and for the 3 beat parts I think triangle.

 

So a subdivision by 5 would be house-triangle.

 

A subdivision by 7 would be house-house-triangle.

[jonPhillips]

I use the house-triangle method! For all the 2-beat parts I think house and for the 3 beat parts I think triangle. So a subdivision by 5 would be house-triangle. A subdivision by 7 would be house-house-triangle.

 

Are we to assume that you live in a tepee?

[Kuroyume]

I don't get these 'word pneumonics'. Maybe it works for some people. I just accent and subaccent accordingly. For instance, a septuplet would be:

 

DA-da-da-Da-da-da-da

 

or

 

DA-da-da-da-Da-da-da

 

At least in my mind, the first beat is 'highly accented' while the 'sub beat' is minorly accented. Of couse, one could go insane and break it down further into strict two-three off-beat accents:

 

da-da-DA-da-Da-da-Da

 

But I think that even this eventually resolves to one of the major-minor beat accent forms depending upon phrasing. Accents within odd timings are complicated beasts best left to either formulation or feeling (imho - as little as it is appreciated)...

[wrathfuldeity]

konokol...think that's what John McLaughlin uses.

[wonkydog]

I don't know squat about time signatures, etc., and I'm gonna sound like a total noob, but here goes...

 

Ok, for reference, I use the word "spanikopita" to count quintuplets.

 

This may be a little difficult to explain, but do quintuplets really "exist"? Here's what I mean- if I play a triplet, I can play 3 notes and it's TRIP-uh-let. Ie, I'm able to keep the accent on only the first part, the TRIP. I feel like I'm truly dividing one beat into 3 evenly spaced notes.

 

But if I do a quintuplet, I do the accent on the SPAN, and then I can't help but put ANOTHER accent on one of the other syllables. To me, that simply doesn't feel like I'm dividing the beat into 5 evenly spaced notes.

 

So a quintuplet kinda comes out as "ONE-two TRIP-uh-let" or "TRIP-uh-let ONE-two."

 

Again, please keep in mind my total ignorance of counting, etc.- but is a quintuplet really a quintuplet, or is it just labeled that way for convenience? I mean, it seems like you could label it as 2 straight 8ths and then a triplet, or a triplet and then 2 staight 8ths.

 

Am I making ANY sense? Or do I simply not comprehend counting in the slightest?

 

Can you guys really divide a beat into 5 evenly spaced notes? It feels impossible to me... like, no matter what, there's a triplet in there somewhere...

[Santuzzo]

 

I don't know squat about time signatures, etc., and I'm gonna sound like a total noob, but here goes... Ok, for reference, I use the word "spanikopita" to count quintuplets. This may be a little difficult to explain, but do quintuplets really "exist"? Here's what I mean- if I play a triplet, I can play 3 notes and it's TRIP-uh-let. Ie, I'm able to keep the accent on only the first part, the TRIP. I feel like I'm truly dividing one beat into 3 evenly spaced notes. But if I do a quintuplet, I do the accent on the SPAN, and then I can't help but put ANOTHER accent on one of the other syllables. To me, that simply doesn't feel like I'm dividing the beat into 5 evenly spaced notes. So a quintuplet kinda comes out as "ONE-two TRIP-uh-let" or "TRIP-uh-let ONE-two." Again, please keep in mind my total ignorance of counting, etc.- but is a quintuplet really a quintuplet, or is it just labeled that way for convenience? I mean, it seems like you could label it as 2 straight 8ths and then a triplet, or a triplet and then 2 staight 8ths. Am I making ANY sense? Or do I simply not comprehend counting in the slightest? Can you guys really divide a beat into 5 evenly spaced notes? It feels impossible to me... like, no matter what, there's a triplet in there somewhere...

 

 

YES, a quintuplet really mean one beat divided into 5 parts of equal lenght in time.

It's NOT the same as 2 16ths and a 16th triplet on one beat.

 

I think the way a quintuplet feels weird at first, like you said it feels impossible, is really only a matter of getting used to it.

 

I have been practicing quintuplets and septuplets for a few weeks now, and I can clearly see how I am getting more used to the feel of them. The don't feel as "home" to me yet as 16ths or triplets do, but I am convinced I will get there if I practice them more. It really is a matter of getting used to it.

[Santuzzo]

Meh. I don't really know how or why you folks use such advanced methods of counting such odd rhythmic groupings as quintuplets, but what I do is: I pick a UBER stupidly slow tempo on the metronome (for instance 30...like I said, hyper-extremely stupid!), tap my foot to it for like 10-20 seconds so that the tempo is internalised in my body and mind, and then try to count from 1 to 5 evenly so that my 'one' always lands on the beat, and all the numbers fall into the space between each beat evenly. I'll keep on counting out loud like that for say 2-5 minutes, then grab my guitar and play some scales/licks in the rhythmic grouping. Once I feel that I have gotten used to it at that tempo, I'm gonna give the metronome a small bump and do it all over again. Come to think my method is probably the most-time consuming and patience-testing one! I think the important thing about rhythmic groupings is never to actually to count 'em while playing; it's more about getting the feel of the groupings. Then again those are just my opinions; don't take 'em too heavily as I'm a really sucky player at this point. Let's wait for some of the more experienced players on this board evaluate whatever I just said.

 

This is actually what I do, too, just I use crazy syllables instead of number.

 

I also agree on the second part, but to get to the point here I can "feel" qunintuplets or spetuplets I have to practice them a lot with counting them out, thne hopefully after a while I will be able to feel and play them without the counting. For me at least, this is how it works.